To not care whether people say sex or gender.

[TeeJay1970]

Many people and organisations use these words interchangerbly. The meaning is always clear. I actually don't give a stuff if others disagree.

It's not my net of conformity. I don't care how other people express their personality. I just don't want any male people in a female single sex space.

Then why the preoccupation with someone "passing"?

How can you pass if there is no benchmark?

What benchmark do you use when deciding if someone passes?

You made the comment. Surely you can explain what you meant?

Because there are limits to how much personal presentation can alter how people perceive your sex.

Only if you accept that women look a certain way.

How do women look to you so that you can confidently judge whether someone is a woman or not?

Experiment

What sex do you think people would guess for either of the two people in this video?:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hDkyg0E6nNQ

90 per cent of the time still leaves room to question the doubt of others being real women though doesn't it?
As you're showing, you can't be right all the time.

@fluffiest 'gender' is a social construction, for example in modern day girls wear pink, play with dolls, boys wear blue, play with trucks and cars. In Victorian (I think) times, boys wore pink, girls wore blue. In Ancient Greece (I am unsure of the exact period), there were 3 genders: child, male, female. One was considered a child until a certain age, I believe it may have been 6 but I could be wrong. Other cultures, again my recollection isn't great but I think certain native American Indian tribes amongst others, have various genders including 'two spirits', people who are believed to have male and female spirits within them. These people are often considered to be a very important part of the community.
'sex' is a biological construct defined by genes and sexual organs primarily.

Only if you accept that women look a certain way.

Lol more gotcha sophistry.

It denies the better possibility that people present however they wish with greater freedom from sex-based stereotypes.

This. Like Rat said earlier; Gender is the problem. Gender is what we need to be rid of, not sex.

90 per cent of the time

Check which number I actually used. Go on.

Then why is one poster concerned with trans women not being able to pass as female? How do you pass as female if men and women can look however they like?

female = sex

Having plastic surgery, wearing sex-based sterotypical clothing, hair etc is a choice. If made it is just that, a male person choosing 'feminine' stereotypes. Many women (adult human females) choose to reject such stereotypes, they of course remain just as female.

People trying to misrepresent what I said earlier in the thread: don't bother. I have a very good memory. I know what I said and where to find it.

The 90 per cent wasn't to you, it was the poster saying 90 per cent of the time you can even tell on the phone.
You talk about passing as female, but even you said you can't always upthread.
Where does that leave the more "manly" looking women who refuse to conform to femininity?

can't always tell that should say

female = sex

This poster appears to be framing it as if I think "femininity=sex". I do not.

Ereshkigal

It wasn't you who said 90%. It was another poster who said 90%. But it was said.

Lol more gotcha sophistry.

Really? Asking you to justify your exact words is creating a false argument.

I see you still aren't answering the question are you?

Where does that leave the more "manly" looking women who refuse to conform to femininity?

I'd say most don't care what they are 'read' as.

And another one.

Cross post with Weetabix and what she said

Another one?

Looking female isnt a case of wearing certain clothes or makeup, surely that goes without saying?

Males and females have differinh skeletal structures. While facial feminisation surgery can help modify features, when you meet someone its still obvious what sex they are.

Obviously "passing" is easier in some situations that others, in photos its very easy. Phone, hearing someone voice, less easy. In life almost impossible.

This poster appears to be framing it as if I think "femininity=sex". I do not.

No one is saying you are framing anything.

You said that trans women don't pass as female.

I am asking how you can pass as female. What does female look like so that you can either pass or fail.

"Most don't care what they are read as"
Oh well, that's just lovely isn't it.
Even if they get treated as men or thought of as one and told to get out of their spaces, fuck em.
Maybe they should slap some make up and high heels on to make themselves more presentable

I see you still aren't answering the question are you?

"I'm not in your employ"

Besides, R0wan did and I responded to her. You're wrongly framing being able to tell a person's biological sex as thinking men and women should conform to stereotypes in dress etc.

Now please answer my question about the video I posted. If you don't mind if course.

Weetabix google sexual dimorphism in humans.

Males and females have differinh skeletal structures. While facial feminisation surgery can help modify features, when you meet someone its still obvious what sex they are.

There you go, Weetabix.

Even if they get treated as men or thought of as one and told to get out of their spaces, fuck em.

Treated as men. Oh no!!