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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To not care whether people say sex or gender.

999 replies

TeeJay1970 · 11/12/2018 21:48

Many people and organisations use these words interchangerbly. The meaning is always clear. I actually don't give a stuff if others disagree.

OP posts:
Weetabixandshreddies · 15/12/2018 12:17

jellyfrizz

I think you should read the posts.

jellyfrizz · 15/12/2018 12:18

What I am saying is that it is society's view of being female that is the problem, not the biological reality of being female.

Completely agree, it's GENDER that's the problem, and gender and sex have historically been interlinked.

I can't understand how you can agree that gender is the problem and then advocate for laws based upon it.

GlitterStick · 15/12/2018 12:18

Nobody can always tell a woman from a man not even you with your presumably foil proof real woman vision.

Ereshkigal · 15/12/2018 12:19

I think you should read the posts.

Perhaps you should link one?

R0wantrees · 15/12/2018 12:19

And they're judged for it! In the same way that a woman would be, because they wouldn't be judged for "looking like a man" if they were one.

The more powerful judgement, mostly by males (regardless of gender identity) is about what presenting in a 'masculine' way means.

Ereshkigal · 15/12/2018 12:19

Nobody can always tell a woman from a man not even you with your presumably foil proof real woman vision.

Hence my not using the word "always".

jellyfrizz · 15/12/2018 12:20

I think you should read the posts.

I have. All of them. If trans women do not use female spaces then there is no issue. As far as I have seen no one has a problem with people presenting how they wish or changing their bodies. It the claiming of women's spaces that is the issue.

Weetabixandshreddies · 15/12/2018 12:20

We're talking about male people not passing as female.

What does a female look like? You haven't answered the question

Ereshkigal · 15/12/2018 12:21

Don't pretend that in 99.99% of cases you can't tell a woman from a man.

GlitterStick · 15/12/2018 12:22

So what about the biological women that might occasionally slip through your net of conformity?
Aren't feminine enough for you? You make a mistake, reject them as being a man?
Sad

jellyfrizz · 15/12/2018 12:22

What does a female look like?

However they. It's about the biology, not the presentation.

jellyfrizz · 15/12/2018 12:22

Oops, however they wish.

Weetabixandshreddies · 15/12/2018 12:22

Perhaps you should link one?

Perhaps you should read your posts and what they imply

GlitterStick · 15/12/2018 12:23

You can't see the biology though unless you go round telling everyone to drop their pants to check

Ereshkigal · 15/12/2018 12:23

It's not my net of conformity. I don't care how other people express their personality. I just don't want any male people in a female single sex space.

R0wantrees · 15/12/2018 12:23

If trans women do not use female spaces then there is no issue. As far as I have seen no one has a problem with people presenting how they wish or changing their bodies. It the claiming of women's spaces that is the issue.

Absolutely: spaces, + services, language, legal protections etc

Ereshkigal · 15/12/2018 12:24

Perhaps you should read your posts and what they imply

Perhaps you should link one and tell me what I wanted to say?

GlitterStick · 15/12/2018 12:25

Is there any point linking though as you won't have it even if someone does link

Ereshkigal · 15/12/2018 12:26

I won't let someone tell me they know what I meant better than I do? Shock horror!

Pennydrew142 · 15/12/2018 12:27

Being trans gender is a protected characteristic yet the things that you say clearly shows that you fundamentally do not accept these people

Nobody is obliged by the law to validate the beliefs of a transgender person. Not accepting human beings can change sex, is not violation of any legislation.

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘accept.’ Nobody is asking they be prevented from expressing themselves or prevented from working, engaging in public life etc The objection is to the changing of accepted definitions of Male and female and the addition of laws which would render existing sex based protections meaningless. Again, these are objections to legislation, not the existence of trans people. You need to engage rationally and resist the urge to misrepresent others positions as a form of emotional manipulation.

R0wantrees · 15/12/2018 12:27

You can't see the biology though unless you go round telling everyone to drop their pants to check

Humans can't change sex, those who have suggested this is possible have done a great dis-service to many who want to.

It denies the better possibility that people present however they wish with greater freedom from sex-based stereotypes.

People know what sex they are.
Denying it is the issue.

Weetabixandshreddies · 15/12/2018 12:28

. If trans women do not use female spaces then there is no issue.

Then why the issue with how trans women dress or present themselves? If there is no issue why do people make the comments?

However they. It's about the biology, not the presentation.

Then why is one poster concerned with trans women not being able to pass as female? How do you pass as female if men and women can look however they like?

You can only pass if there is an acceptable way to look can't you? There has to be an agreed benchmark for you to pass. You either reach the benchmark and therefore pass or you fall short and fail.

What is this benchmark by which the PP decides if someone passes or not?

Ereshkigal · 15/12/2018 12:28

You need to engage rationally and resist the urge to misrepresent others positions as a form of emotional manipulation.

This this this.

Hyppolyta · 15/12/2018 12:29

GlitterStick what in earth do you mean claiming we cant see biology?

Humans are sexually dimorphic, you can tell whos male and female remarkably easily.

90% of the time you can tell just on the phone, by someones voice.

Ereshkigal · 15/12/2018 12:30

How do you pass as female if men and women can look however they like?

Because there are limits to how much personal presentation can alter how people perceive your sex.