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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not care whether people say sex or gender.

999 replies

TeeJay1970 · 11/12/2018 21:48

Many people and organisations use these words interchangerbly. The meaning is always clear. I actually don't give a stuff if others disagree.

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 15/12/2018 12:43

More by Rebecca Reilly-Cooper:

'Gender is not a spectrum
The idea that ‘gender is a spectrum’ is supposed to set us free. But it is both illogical and politically troubling'

(extract)
"What is gender? This is a question that cuts to the very heart of feminist theory and practice, and is pivotal to current debates in social justice activism about class, identity and privilege. In everyday conversation, the word ‘gender’ is a synonym for what would more accurately be referred to as ‘sex’. Perhaps due to a vague squeamishness about uttering a word that also describes sexual intercourse, the word ‘gender’ is now euphemistically used to refer to the biological fact of whether a person is female or male, saving us all the mild embarrassment of having to invoke, however indirectly, the bodily organs and processes that this bifurcation entails.

The word ‘gender’ originally had a purely grammatical meaning in languages that classify their nouns as masculine, feminine or neuter. But since at least the 1960s, the word has taken on another meaning, allowing us to make a distinction between sex and gender. For feminists, this distinction has been important, because it enables us to acknowledge that some of the differences between women and men are traceable to biology, while others have their roots in environment, culture, upbringing and education – what feminists call ‘gendered socialisation’.

At least, that is the role that the word gender traditionally performed in feminist theory. It used to be a basic, fundamental feminist idea that while sex referred to what is biological, and so perhaps in some sense ‘natural’, gender referred to what is socially constructed. On this view, which for simplicity we can call the radical feminist view, gender refers to the externally imposed set of norms that prescribe and proscribe desirable behaviour to individuals in accordance with morally arbitrary characteristics.

Not only are these norms external to the individual and coercively imposed, but they also represent a binary caste system or hierarchy, a value system with two positions: maleness above femaleness, manhood above womanhood, masculinity above femininity. Individuals are born with the potential to perform one of two reproductive roles, determined at birth, or even before, by the external genitals that the infant possesses. From then on, they will be inculcated into one of two classes in the hierarchy: the superior class if their genitals are convex, the inferior one if their genitals are concave.

From birth, and the identification of sex-class membership that happens at that moment, most female people are raised to be passive, submissive, weak and nurturing, while most male people are raised to be active, dominant, strong and aggressive. This value system, and the process of socialising and inculcating individuals into it, is what a radical feminist means by the word ‘gender’. Understood like this, it’s not difficult to see what is objectionable and oppressive about gender, since it constrains the potential of both male and female people alike, and asserts the superiority of males over females. So, for the radical feminist, the aim is to abolish gender altogether: to stop putting people into pink and blue boxes, and to allow the development of individuals’ personalities and preferences without the coercive influence of this socially enacted value system.

This view of the nature of gender sits uneasily with those who experience gender as in some sense internal and innate, rather than as entirely socially constructed and externally imposed. Such people not only dispute that gender is entirely constructed, but also reject the radical feminist analysis that it is inherently hierarchical with two positions. On this view, which for ease I will call the queer feminist view of gender, what makes the operation of gender oppressive is not that it is socially constructed and coercively imposed: rather, the problem is the prevalence of the belief that there are only two genders.

Humans of both sexes would be liberated if we recognised that while gender is indeed an internal, innate, essential facet of our identities, there are more genders than just ‘woman’ or ‘man’ to choose from. And the next step on the path to liberation is the recognition of a new range of gender identities: so we now have people referring to themselves as ‘genderqueer’ or ‘non-binary’ or ‘pangender’ or ‘polygender’ or ‘agender’ or ‘demiboy’ or ‘demigirl’ or ‘neutrois’ or ‘aporagender’ or ‘lunagender’ or ‘quantumgender’… I could go on. An oft-repeated mantra among proponents of this view is that ‘gender is not a binary; it’s a spectrum’. What follows from this view is not that we need to tear down the pink and the blue boxes; rather, we simply need to recognise that there are many more boxes than just these two." (continues)
aeon.co/essays/the-idea-that-gender-is-a-spectrum-is-a-new-gender-prison

Ereshkigal · 15/12/2018 12:44

Really? Asking you to justify your exact words is creating a false argument.

Weetabix. I don't subscribe to your special gendered soul belief system. So "what does a female look like" solely refers to a person's biological sex, for me.

Weetabixandshreddies · 15/12/2018 12:44

You're wrongly framing being able to tell a person's biological sex as thinking men and women should conform to stereotypes in dress etc.
I'm not framing anything as anything.

I am asking you to explain how you can judge someone as passing as female. Which you claim to be able to do.

So answer that question.

Hyppolyta · 15/12/2018 12:47

Weetabix google sexual dimorphism in humans.

Yes we could spend an hour explaining how just the angle of the zygomatic can indicate sex... but if youre still confusing sexual dimorphism with wearing make up, its a bit pointless.

Weetabixandshreddies · 15/12/2018 12:47

So "what does a female look like" solely refers to a person's biological sex, for me.

And how can you judge that by looking at someone?

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 15/12/2018 12:49

why the issue with how trans women dress or present themselves? If there is no issue why do people make the comments?

because often transwomen (NATWALT) are stressing cosmetic things like their hair, makeup or clothing (gold lame purse anyone?) to 'prove' that they are female. When actually all it proves is their femininity.

GC feminists are always going to be infuriated by that because their basic proposition is that the restrictions that go along with femininity =/= female, and women should not automatically accept or be subjected to those restrictions

RatRolyPoly · 15/12/2018 12:49

90% of the time you can tell just on the phone, by someones voice.

I thought Jess Glynn's songs were by a male singer until I found out her name.

Weetabixandshreddies · 15/12/2018 12:50

but if youre still confusing sexual dimorphism with wearing make up, its a bit pointless.

Well, I'm not the one saying it.

I'm not the one saying that people can pass as a certain sex because to say that I have to have a fixed view on how a sex looks.

Hyppolyta · 15/12/2018 12:51

Weetabix as you seem unable to google...

Males and female humans have different skeletons. You can pick up a skull and tell if it is male or female.

The cheecks, chin, eyes... all different. In the whole body there are lots of these subtle (and not so subtle) differences.

This is called sexual dimorphism. Lots of animals are sexually dimorphic. Its how we can all tell whether someone is male or female.

Most people learn this at a very, very young age, usually around 3 or 4. Its quite fascinating, you should have a read about it.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 15/12/2018 12:52

and this idea that one day males and females will be treated exactly the same

that would be a very bad thing

females gestate young and breast feed. They are also generally smaller and weaker than males.

in certain specific situations females have very different needs to males. in those situations it would be highly regressive to treat males and females the same.

jellyfrizz · 15/12/2018 12:52

I am asking you to explain how you can judge someone as passing as female. Which you claim to be able to do.

It's a combination of things; height, body shape (particularly waist, hips, hands feet and shoulders), features e.g. Adam's apple, broader jaw, nose, brow line, facial hair, voice, smell, stance, body language.

The differences between the sexes are, unsurprisingly, most noticeable during the fertile years and less obvious in older people or before adolescence.

RatRolyPoly · 15/12/2018 12:54

The cheecks, chin, eyes... all different. In the whole body there are lots of these subtle (and not so subtle) differences.

Hmm, interesting. Are there any differences between male and female brains then? Is there such thing as the female brain?

PencilsInSpace · 15/12/2018 12:57

I love RR Cooper. One of the silver linings of this whole clusterfuck is discovering all these great female philosophers.

I know there was some controversy when Cooper presented her 'Basic Questions About Sex and Gender for Progressives' in a WPUK speech because she said we shouldn't get bogged down in arguments about the definition of 'woman' (as the questions were designed as in impasse out of that) and some took that to mean that the definition of 'woman' doesn't matter, which obviously it does.

I have found these questions useful in exactly those bogged down arguments and it's a shame Weetabix and Glitter have not engaged with them here, after R0wan posted them.

Here they are again. How would you respond to these, Weetabix and Glitter?

  1. Do you believe that being born with the kind of body that has the potential to gestate children – a body with a uterus, ovaries, and a vagina – is of any political significance? Does having that kind of body have any bearing on a person’s likely opportunities and outcomes?
  1. Do you believe that people born with those kinds of bodies have historically been subject to any distinct forms of injustice, oppression, exploitation or discrimination? Have they historically been subordinated to the people with penises and testes?
  1. Do you believe that people born with those kinds of bodies continue to be subject to any distinct forms of injustice, oppression, exploitation or discrimination?
  1. Do you believe that people born with those kinds of bodies often suffer physical and sexual violence, abuse and harassment perpetrated by the people with penises and testes?
  1. Do you believe that people born with those kinds of bodies ought to have a label with which to define themselves? Does our language need a word to refer to the people with uteruses and ovaries?
  1. Do you believe that people born with those kinds of bodies have a right to organise politically around their shared experiences, and to campaign and work for policies to secure their own interests?
  1. Do you believe that people born with those kinds of bodies have a right to associate freely with other people with those kinds of bodies, and to have some separate spaces for their safety, privacy and dignity? Do people with those kinds of bodies have a right to some spaces where people with penises and testes are not permitted to enter?
  1. Do you believe that people born with those kinds of bodies sometimes have a right to policies and resources designated towards rectifying their historical and continued marginalisation and oppression?
BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 15/12/2018 12:57

there are definitely female brains - every woman I know has one Smile

Weetabixandshreddies · 15/12/2018 12:58

You can pick up a skull and tell if it is male or female.
Yes. And you can xray an adult pelvis and deduce whether it's male or female.

Can't remember the last time that I xrayed someone or anthropomorphically examined someone's skull though. Presumably. Ereshkigal does this all the time in order to be able to identify someone's sex so reliably?

Some men have small frames and bone structure. Some women have larger frames and bone structure.

Passing or not passing is a value judgement.

Hyppolyta · 15/12/2018 12:59

Rat youre misunderstamding sexual dimorphism.

You cant pick one feature, out of many, and assign sex based on that one feature.

Yes there are diffences, such as cortical thickness. Males also have larger lungs, there are variations in many organs.

However a male whom, for example, had lung cancer and had a smaller lung capacity, would not suddenly become female.

Ereshkigal · 15/12/2018 12:59

%And how can you judge that by looking at someone?^

Quite easily 99.99% of the time. As I already said.

R0wantrees · 15/12/2018 13:00

Where does that leave the more "manly" looking women who refuse to conform to femininity?

This is the issue, its a view that is inherently sexist.
Women who don't conform to 'feminine' stereotypes aren't 'manly' they are simply and solely women who choose not to conform to sex-based stereotypes.

jellyfrizz · 15/12/2018 13:00

Are there any differences between male and female brains then? Is there such thing as the female brain?

Not that has ever been conclusively proven. Which you'd think would be easy to do if the differences were as marked as in the rest of the body.

Hyppolyta · 15/12/2018 13:00

Weetabix examination really isnt needed, just a quick glance is enough!

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 15/12/2018 13:01

I've always been very against the idea of female brains, it seems to me to be a device favoured by the likes of Jordan Peterson to tell women that they are emotionally suited to cleaning the toilet.

however a couple of posters on here who are professional scientists and whose views I respect have mused that in their opinion the hormonal differences between men and women may lead to differences in brain function

however we know that right now you cannot in isolation categorise a brain as male or female

there are tendencies which could signpost one way or the other, but nothing that's 100% reliable

not like with say, bodies, where you can always distinguish by examining them what sex they are

Weetabixandshreddies · 15/12/2018 13:01

It's a combination of things; height, body shape (particularly waist, hips, hands feet and shoulders), features e.g. Adam's apple, broader jaw, nose, brow line, facial hair, voice, smell, stance, body language.

And interestingly most of these features develop after puberty.

Given that some people are using puberty blockers I wonder how that will affect your ability to decide who passes or not based on these characteristics?

Ereshkigal · 15/12/2018 13:02

Passing or not passing is a value judgement.

No it's not. There's no imperative for a male person to try to look like a female person. The idea that "passing is superior" is entirely part of transgenderism, not feminism.

Weetabixandshreddies · 15/12/2018 13:03

Deciding who passes is a value judgement. One that you are making.

Ereshkigal · 15/12/2018 13:04

Given that some people are using puberty blockers

You think young children taking damaging drugs to artificially arrest their natural development is in any way what society should look to?

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