To not care whether people say sex or gender.

[TeeJay1970]

Many people and organisations use these words interchangerbly. The meaning is always clear. I actually don't give a stuff if others disagree.

Ask Ray whether she thinks male people with gender recognition certificates or applying for them under current rules are the only male people "living meaningfully" as women.

Rat. You can ask Ray too.

It may not Have much but it has a damn site more than any cosmetically altered man will ever have no matter how much they threaten people to say otherwise
Can you expand on that?

Are you saying that a foetus has more to offer than a person, living their life, possibly working, with family and friends, hobbies, contributing to society?

How can that be?

What do women as a class have in common with MTF trans people that they don't also have in common with men?

Being scrutisined for looking sufficiently like a woman "should".

Its more a girl than a man will ever be.

And It doenst need to send police round to get someone to say it

No, she means a female foetus has more in common with other females then a male person. Slow hand clap for you too. Is it some kind of national obtuse day?

Being scrutisined for looking sufficiently like a woman "should".

Does this apply to Alex Drummond? Danielle Muscato? Why would a male person be remotely expected to look like a woman?

Why would a male person be remotely expected to look like a woman?
What should a male person look like then?

Pretty sure I've seen Danielle Muscato held up repeatedly around here as not looking enough like a woman to be a "proper" one.

Why would a male person be remotely expected to look like a woman?

Because they say they are one. Because it turns out that being judged against gender strreotypes isn't a result of what's between your legs but what you profess to be.

It's because Danielle is biologically male. That's why Danielle is held up as not being a proper woman. Danielle literally is not one. A woman is a female person.

They are a bloke end of. The male sex

But let's not let science get on the way if pervy old men wanting to call themselves lesbians

Priorities...

What should a male person look like then?

Whatever they like. But its completely ridiculous to suggest they are pressured to look like a woman. It's clearly a personal choice for a male person to claim to be an actual woman rather than a male person with dysphoria.

It's because Danielle is biologically male.

Nope, it's because she looks stereotypically male. Or you'd be putting up pictures of Jazz Jennings, saying "is THIS a woman??".

Come on now, you're kidding yourselves.

They look like what they are.

A bloke.

Nope, it's because she looks stereotypically male

By having a penis. Ergo biologically male?

Jazz Jennings doesn't totally pass as a woman, especially on film. Even after taking horrible drugs that people you support advocate which meant Jazz didn't develop properly. I was using an obvious example like Danielle because it seems that is necessary for you to grasp the point.

Let's recap. I was asked what trans women have in common with natal women. I answered that they're both held up against the standards of femininity, and that this is not because of their natal sex (which they do not have in common) but in virtue of their identifying themselves as women; which they DO have in common.

And I'm right.

It wouldn't kill you to admit it every once in a while.

They're not as a class held up against the standards of femininity as plenty of them don't identify with femininity and no fucker thinks they are in any way female.

Women don't identify as women.

Don't try and wriggle out of it, I said you identify yourself as a woman. You're a woman aren't you? You would call yourself a woman?

Fucking hell, you lot just will not open your minds to the fact that perhaps things aren't as black and white as you'd like, even when it's spelt out in front of you.

Women dress and act in a huge variety of ways. And still are women.

This is clearly something you have a massive problem with, Rat. You're like Meg-John Barker who called northern women and autistic women gender non conforming because stereotypically they don't fit into her little box.

But we don't identify as Women

We arebt so arrogant as to think being a woman can be brought down to thoughts and feelings in one person's head

It's a biological reality

If I say I identify as a cat, I am a cat then Rat? Are you a rat?

This is clearly something you have a massive problem with, Rat. You're like Meg-John Barker who called northern women and autistic women gender non conforming because stereotypically they don't fit into her little box.

Ha! You'd have a right laugh if you met me, I'm so far from conforming it's laughable

But we don't identify as Women

Sorry, but you do. You call yourself a woman, you tick the woman box on a form, you use facilities marked "women", you identify as a woman. That's what the words mean.

If I say I identify as a cat, I am a cat then Rat? Are you a rat?

I'm a piss head vision of perfection.