To not care whether people say sex or gender.

[TeeJay1970]

Many people and organisations use these words interchangerbly. The meaning is always clear. I actually don't give a stuff if others disagree.

Being gay was a DSM mental illness until 1974 and plenty of the psychiatrists who were forced to stop trying to coerce it out of people considered themselves the victims of militant action by unhinged perverts. It you can't see the parallels you need to take a step back and look at the wood.

You do realise, don't you, that people can read and think critically. Saying that people used to think homosexuality was an illness, therefore things that are considered an illness now, is wrong, is toddler talk?

Oh look, something that is similar to this thing, therefore this thing must be the same as that thing.

It's very simple. Homosexuality is not a medical condition. Gender dysphoria is.

It's also the height of hypocrisy to keep invoking homophobia as a parallel to transphobia. Given that the trans ideology is profoundly homophobic.

mmm, do you think that bipolar disorder, currently considered a mental illness, will be considered brave and stunning in 30 years time GlitterStick ?

some things just are mental illnesses. I'd argue that being fundamentally so unhappy with your sex that you want to pretend to be a member of the opposite sex is very easily identifiable as a mental illness. what else could it be?

If it was known as a mental illness in the 70s, people on here saying the same about trans people now, that it's a mental illness, there is a parallel there.
The same.

I’m struggling to follow your logic. Did you read what I wrote at all? You’re not actually explaining what is the same about homosexuality and transgenderism. Given much of trans ideology is homophobic, I’m not sure how you can explain any similarity.

They are not the same because both have been described as illnesses. That’s very... strange and childlike to draw a comparison based on that. Autism was once and is still sometimes described as a ‘mental illness’ ( it’s not one ), it isn’t the same as homosexuality either.

You need to be able to articulate better what comparison you are making.

penny

I know, some of the lack of knowledge about how homosexuals have been treated in our society is beyond belief

Sorry

Hysteria is undoubtedly the first mental disorder attributable to women, accurately described in the second millennium BC, and until Freud considered an exclusively female disease. Over 4000 years of history, this ...

We can find lots of parallels surely

Being gay is nothing like being trans.

Lock a man alome in a room.and he will still be gay.

A man doesn't get to decide to be gay three days a week then still get awards for being gay.

If it was known as a mental illness in the 70s, people on here saying the same about trans people now, that it's a mental illness, there is a parallel there.

But there are plenty of transpeople who openly say that their transgenderism is a mental illness. I'm pretty sure India Willoughby has. Isn't that what 'gender dysphoria' is? There is something 'wrong' which needs to be 'corrected'? Isn't that why they should be able to get surgery and hormones etc on the NHS?

When did being gay ever mean you had to mutilate your healthy body or impinge on someone else's rights by accessing their legal protections that actually you are not entitled to?

I'm still waiting for fox or glitterstick to tell us when they think a trans woman becomes a woman.

The argument that being trans is like being gay is ridiculous. As PP have said, the trans ideology is homophobic and is currently attempting to erase lesbians. Saying one thing was seen as a mental illness in the past and no longer is therefore means that anything that is currently identified as a mental illness must be wrong is inane and is not a coherent argument.

As Giles said - Lock a man alone in a room.and he will still be gay.
A man doesn't get to decide to be gay three days a week then still get awards for being gay.

I am also interested in how people who are speaking out against the current trans ideology are being called "transphobes" or "transphobic". A phobia is an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something. I have no fear of trans people so I can't be part of the Transphobes United that Fox mentioned a couple of pages ago.

I'm not normally one to reference the Daily Mail however there is a piece in it today, an interview with a trans woman, that I think is worth a read as it highlights some of the realities the TRA's are glossing over or completely dismissing in their preachings mainly to children about the wonderful life trans people will lead if the changes to the GRA go through.
www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-6493959/Transsexual-warn-reality-transexual.html

Homophobia: denying someone a job because they fancy people of the same sex, not allowing two people of the same sex to get married, making sex between two consenting adults of the same sex illegal, thinking that someone is a lesser human or disgusting simply because they are attracted to people of the same sex.

Transphobia: believing that men cannot become women.

I'm still waiting for fox or glitterstick to tell us when they think a trans woman becomes a woman.

I think we'd all like an answer to that one, Ce'Nedra. Although if you go with the born in the wrong body narrative, presumably even the concept of them 'becoming a woman' is transphobic.

Not necessarily a fear, even the dictionary says dislike or prejudice towards transpeople.

Empress

Glitter allow me to elaborate based on the definition of transphobia you provide. I don't dislike trans people. People can identify any way they like. I DO DISLIKE male bodied people in women's only spaces.

Prejudice - Noun - Preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience
Given that I, as well as others, are of the opinion that male bodied people should not be allowed into women's only spaces, women's sport etc. and that this opinion is based in fact not feeling (fact's that many posters on here have been happy to provide) proves there is no prejudice.

Oh and by the way, my disliking having male bodied people in women's only spaces does not mean, by any stretch, that I dislike men. Quite the opposite really

You do realise, don't you, that people can read and think critically. Saying that people used to think homosexuality was an illness, therefore things that are considered an illness now, is wrong, is toddler talk?

It's a parallel, not a syllogism.

Funny, since people arguing that disorders of sex development and clownfish prove that sex is a spectrum are such fans of the false syllogism.

Glitterstick wrote:
If it was known as a mental illness in the 70s, people on here saying the same about trans people now, that it's a mental illness, there is a parallel there.
The same.

By pointing out that they are 'the same' Glitter was making a deduction or syllogism between homosexuality and being trans. In response to that PP and myself have pointed out that they are not the same, and when looking at the 2 in depth you will find there is little to no similarity at all so trying to make any sort of comparison is pointless.

I do like though how the reference to Clownfish keeps popping up, as if the biological behaviour and make up of fish has any relevance to the biological behaviour and make up of mammals. Another wonderfully superfluous argument there as humans will never suddenly become fish even if we start identifying ourselves as such

A parallel there. As in the same as there's a parallel with gay history, there is here.
You're word twisting.

A parallel there. As in the same as there's a parallel with gay history, there is here. You're word twisting.

If we're drawing parallels, we might as well compare people believing they're 'born in the wrong body' with those who believe they have too many limbs and want to have one or more surgically removed.

That's a better comparison, in fact, because it relates to psychological issues of body dysmorphia or dysphoria.

Not word twisting at all Glitter, there is no parallel, you said there was, you said they were the same, they aren't.

The gay rights movement was not a movement by a class or group of people that would potentially caused harm to another class or group of people. Who people love romantically and who they fancy doing the horizontal mambo with has no impact on other people. The gay movement never asked another class or group of people to give up their rights or their safe spaces. The gay rights movement centred around their request to not be discriminated against within society.

The trans movement on the other hand is a movement that can, and already has (Karen White anyone? men now being allowed to participate in women's sport?), caused harm to another class or group of people. Women (the most highly discriminated against class of people on the planet) who have fought for over 100 years to win their right to having their own single-sex spaces, single-sex sports etc. now have a class or group of people (the great majority of which are men) demanding not asking, not saying hey lets all get together and have a calm and rational discussion about this but demanding! that they be given free access to the single-sex spaces women have. Spaces that allow us to maintain our dignity, commune with others of our own sex, discuss sex specific related topics and issues and to feel respected. Trans people already have the right to not be discriminated against, those rights are already legislated. This push that is being made is not about trans rights because they already have those rights. This is about the erasure of women, because if we don't just mindlessly spout the mantra TWAW we are labelled TERFS, transphobes, we are assulted, have piss thrown at our office doors, have rape threats made against us, have our children threatened. This is a militant political ideology (and a massively misogynistic one at that) that is being forced upon us and I personally find the comparison with the gay rights movement a pathetic comparison.

VickyEadie just made a far better comparison - If we're drawing parallels, we might as well compare people believing they're 'born in the wrong body' with those who believe they have too many limbs and want to have one or more surgically removed.

That's a better comparison, in fact, because it relates to psychological issues of body dysmorphia or dysphoria.

All this brings be back to a question I asked a while ago but hasn't been answered. When does a trans woman become a woman? I'm still interested in the answer to that.

For those not seeing or reading what I actually said - which was if there was people saying in the 70s that gay was a mental illness and now people are saying trans is, there's a parallel there.
Same thing. As in same thing that people dismiss them both as mental illnesses, not same thing anything else.

Fox, do you believe fetishistic cross dressing is a thing for men?

In some men, of course. And?

No. You’re the one claiming the parallels exist, please explain them. How is homosexuality and transgenderism the same? Referencing similar reactions in society is irrelevant. It doesn’t make them the same. Plenty of ideologies and beliefs are rejected by society, doesn’t make the beliefs themselves comparable. You need to explain exactly why you think homosexuality and transgenderism are comparable.

Ok, try this one. Do gay men display male patterns of violent offending? I expect so. Do some of them abuse children? Yes. Did an above the population average number of them 30 years ago (and probably still now) enjoy BDSM, fetish and other risky (and I'm not talking about HIV here) or extreme practices, considered perverted, licentious or corrosive to the fabric of society at the time? I'd say so.

Did they keep insisting, sometimes violently, that what other people thought was a subjective lifestyle choice or communicable deviance was actually an innate and immutable fact, that it be acknowledged as such and that they be granted rights and protections for it despite other people insisting that these would impinge upon their own or were biologically nonsensical? They did.

Did homophobes consider all that a valid reason to demonise, erase and exclude all of them? Yup, until we grew up and stopped allowing that.

The argument that being trans is like being gay is ridiculous. As PP have said, the trans ideology is homophobic and is currently attempting to erase lesbians.

I'd say roughly 85% of the lesbians I know disagree with you on that, and pretty damn strongly.

Glitter I agree that there were people that said decades ago that homosexuality was a mental illness. We now know that it isn't. Gender Dysphoria however is a mental illness/condition (the definition is "the distress a person experiences as a result of the sex and gender they were assigned at birth.") note here that the definition reads sex AND gender and separates the two words. It's like believing your left arm isn't your arm and it should be removed, it's a psychologial issue. While both homosexuality and transsexualism have been labelled mental illnesses/condition one is and one isn't. The parallel no longer exists where decades ago the parallel could have been drawn.

I'd say roughly 85% of the lesbians I know disagree with you on that, and pretty damn strongly.

All the lesbians I know (including me and my partner) agree with it, as a matter of fact.

Did homophobes consider all that a valid reason to demonise, erase and exclude all of them?

Stop with the stupid lies.

Nobody is demonising trans by wanting to keep women’s boundaries. Gay men aren’t allowed in our changing rooms either.

Nobody wants anybody ‘erased’.

Nobody is ‘excluding them’. They’re literally being treated like everyone else. Everyone else is expected to observe sex based protections.