To not care whether people say sex or gender.

[TeeJay1970]

Many people and organisations use these words interchangerbly. The meaning is always clear. I actually don't give a stuff if others disagree.

You cabt compare it to being gay.

Being gay isn't forcing anyone else to collude with a mental illness.

Being gay affects only the person involved.

Being gay does not trample over anyone else's rights.

Still does not mean that humans can change sex

Hence transgenderism.

So you’re saying you don’t believe people actually change sex when they change gender, and it is not true when someone like Lily Madigan says they are a woman? And a lesbian (same-sex attracted woman, in case there’s any confusion)?

Well I agree with you on that.

Comparisons to homosexuality are a false equivalency and offensive. Gay people just want to like who they want. Transgender ideology is being forced on everyone and affects existing laws and safeguarding. Those are the issues people here discuss, the actual reality of changes to laws and language for women. It’s lazy and not very smart to bring homosexuality to the conversation.

Ah so I see, you are calling people transphobes here you just are trying to get around it to avoid a ban. Only people without a solid argument resort to name-calling.

Yes NonExistentFox, I absolutely agree that people who are transgender have not changed sex

hence the fact that transwomen have no place in women only spaces

it's so good to find common ground

I haven't seen anyone on this thread spreading fear of trans people. I've seen plenty of well evidenced caution about men and male violence though - is it possible that you're confused?

and please stop with your insulting allusions to well justified caution about male violence being akin to homophobia. it's annoying and it does your argument no good either

Hence transgenderism.

Right-o. So to answer the OP’s question you do care about the distinction between sex and gender.

I haven't seen anyone on this thread spreading fear of trans people. I've seen plenty of well evidenced caution about men and male violence though - is it possible that you're confused?

That must be it. It wouldn't do if Fox were actually scaremongering and whipping up prejudice themselves.

"I haven't seen anyone on this board spreading fear of trans people" - ok, but have you looked in the FWR board? Happens from some there.

Facts, biology, truth, are not hatred or spreading fear.

When it's proven that trans people maintain the same rates of violence

When it's been proven that the loopholes have put women at risk in prisons.

When it's a fact that mixed sex changing rooms are more.danherous for women and girls.

When no trans woman has been beaten up and killed in a UK toilet.

When there have been very few deaths in the past decade in the UK of transwomen and those that there have been are a result of MALE VIOLENCE And wine a 're killed at a rate of 2 a week.

Please tell me why we should accept trans identifying males in our spaces.

I'm.all ears

ok, but have you looked in the FWR board? Happens from some there

No it doesn’t. MN have very detailed and specific rules to prevent that. What do you interpret ‘spreading fear’ to mean? Give a detailed example from FWR where that has happened. Remember that fact based discussions on violent crime is not ‘fear mongering’ and telling women not to discuss such things amongst themselves is in fact misogynistic.

mmm, examples of the transphobia on FWR please GlitterStick

is it possible that as above, you may be interpreting a healthy caution towards male violence as transphobia?

I'm calling people who are afraid and spreading fear of trans people transphobic, and it's a lot better evidenced on here than, say, autogynephilia,

Oh dear lord. It's not about transpeople, it's about men. You know, the ones who commit 98% of all sex crimes.

But if you want to talk about people women who say they are trans, how about the ones who go out of their way to threaten, dox and intimidate women? Punching them in public, sending them rape threats, pissing up their office doors, sending bomb threats, storming venues, masked and with dogs, threatening the men they take as protection with 'sparking them out', putting their children's details online, attempting to prosecute them for spurious reasons, contacting their employees, letting off smoke bombs in newspapers who support women and who chant burn it down, outside meetings that the government have called for.

And those are just the ones who don't want women to just talk.

But yeah, the normal, expected, intended reaction to that is 'transphobic'! Ffs.

And of course, I can't wait for those people to be in my spaces where I and my kids are stripping off.

And if, for a reason known only to yourself, you are dismissing autogynephilia, perhaps this thread, that is nearly full, of women who are married, or divorced from, autogynephiles will enlighten you.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3101834-trans-widows-escape-committee

Jane Clare Jones - Gay Rights and Trans Rights – A Compare and Contrast:

What I want to do here is think through why the concept of ‘discrimination-as-phobia’ worked for the gay rights movement, and why, despite superficial similarities, it doesn’t accurately capture what is at stake in the trans rights debate, and actually serves as a tool of political propaganda and obfuscation to push that agenda through. That is, I’m going to argue that accusations of ‘homophobia’ were a politically powerful and basically on-the-money part of gay rights discourse, while the use of ‘transphobia’ is an inaccurate parallel which grossly distorts public perceptions of the issues involved in the trans rights debate, and is doing so in the service of actually preventing that debate taking place.

which grossly distorts public perceptions of the issues involved in the trans rights debate,

Like saying that women who are intimidated by the intimidation tactics of transactivists are transphobic.

It's the very definition of gaslighting.

And if, for a reason known only to yourself, you are dismissing autogynephilia

I wonder if Fox doesn't believe that fetishistic cross dressing is a thing? It's even in the DSM5.

Men throughout history have cross dressed. The difference now is that Stonewall and other organisations have put them under the same umbrella as people with gender dysphoria.

Being gay isn't forcing anyone else to collude with a mental illness.

Being gay was a DSM mental illness until 1974 and plenty of the psychiatrists who were forced to stop trying to coerce it out of people considered themselves the victims of militant action by unhinged perverts. It you can't see the parallels you need to take a step back and look at the wood.

More from Jane Clare Jones' essay:

It should be pretty evident that any political program based on attempting to reframe such a fundamental aspect of human perception is only going to succeed by using totalitarian methods. By relentlessly drilling its axioms into public consciousness and by making people who reject them pay a very high social price. The phrase ‘Orwellian’ is madly overused, but it documents the methods of trans activism almost to the letter. We have the profligate rewriting of history – including the transing of the gender-non-conforming dead (um, I thought it was self-ID?), the transing of the drag-queens who started the Stonewall riot (even though they didn’t, because that was a black lesbian called Stormé DeLarverie), and the absurd suggestion that literature or history about people cross-dressing for social, political, or economic reasons harms trans people because past cross-dressers were actually just expressing their ‘authentic selves’ (you fucking bigot Shakespeare). It’s only slight hyperbole to say that right now a lot of us feel like we’re stuck in Room 101 except O’Brien looks like Riley Dennis and the ‘2+2=5’ is ‘Sex does not exist’ and the rats are a bunch of trans activists threatening us with baby blue and pink baseball bats (and in case you want to wilfully misinterpret me, I’m not saying trans people are vermin, I’m using the exact reference of the thing that scares Winston shitless and is used to coerce him). We could go on pointing out the parallels all day, but really people, when you start doing shit like this, you really should be asking yourself whether you’re getting a touch Ministry of Truth-y.

That's interesting @NonExistentFox, didn't know about gay parallel.
Sobering.

Not read the full thread but the words have different meanings which are important. People want to protect that.

It you can't see the parallels you need to take a step back and look at the wood.

No. You’re the one claiming the parallels exist, please explain them. How is homosexuality and transgenderism the same? Referencing similar reactions in society is irrelevant. It doesn’t make them the same. Plenty of ideologies and beliefs are rejected by society, doesn’t make the beliefs themselves comparable. You need to explain exactly why you think homosexuality and transgenderism are comparable. Not the reactions to them. Rejecting a belief is not ‘phobic’. Nobody here is advocating to make transgenderism illegal.

Fox, do you believe fetishistic cross dressing is a thing for men? Or do you think all male people who do it have the special woman essence discussed earlier?

GlitterStick really? You didn’t know homosexuality was considered a mental illness at one point? It’s such a well known fact. Also nothing to do with transgenderism.

It should be pretty evident that any political program based on attempting to reframe such a fundamental aspect of human perception is only going to succeed by using totalitarian methods.

^

If it was known as a mental illness in the 70s, people on here saying the same about trans people now, that it's a mental illness, there is a parallel there.
The same.