Page 16 | To not care whether people say sex or gender.

TeeJay1970 · 2018-12-11T21:48:11+00:00

Many people and organisations use these words interchangerbly. The meaning is always clear. I actually don't give a stuff if others disagree.

Ereshkigal · 13/12/2018 11:37

I'm equally happy to disregard you because I haven't seen anything to suggest that your certainty is better reasoned than my uncertainty.

As religious believers would say about God.

Ihaventgottimeforthis · 13/12/2018 11:39

Bernard I would also add that the principle of sex segregation in certain spaces & activities is not simply about reducing the risk of assault & rape, as that is a very low bar to set for female rights, but also about giving us space for privacy, comfort & dignity. And opportunities to engage with and get support from other women away from the influence and gaze of men.
Sport is a huuge thing for me. And that also brings in the issues of physical safety, fairness in competition, and encouragement of participation.

Ereshkigal · 13/12/2018 11:40

You surely see that it's a similar argument? You are entitled to whatever faith based positions you want to take. Anyone is. But it's not rational for others to also believe them without objective evidence and reasoning.

Ereshkigal · 13/12/2018 11:41

Sorry that was following on from my point to Fox. It is indeed a fast moving thread!

Ereshkigal · 13/12/2018 11:45

would also add that the principle of sex segregation in certain spaces & activities is not simply about reducing the risk of assault & rape, as that is a very low bar to set for female rights, but also about giving us space for privacy, comfort & dignity.

YY exactly.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 13/12/2018 14:21

I agree Ihaventgottimeforthis

I just felt (call me cynical), that NonExistantFox may be a person who doesn't care particularly about the feelings of women and girls (sorry if I'm maligning you there), and so going for the safety argument would be easiest (and I'm lazy!)

NonExistentFox · 13/12/2018 14:35

2) there is no way to categorise a brain as male or female ( study already linked to above )

That's about the size of hippocampuses, not the workings of whole brains.

As religious believers would say about God

I think you're projecting a bit there. It's generally agnostics who make a virtue of uncertainty, not believers. And I haven't made a single faith-based declaration on this site except possibly about tigers, so you seem to have jumped to a [Disagreed With Me = TRA = Brainless Fanatic] sort of conclusion.

I don't, fundamentally, care what the truth turns out to be, because I'm not an activist on either side and I haven't invested my identity, be it gendered, chromosomal, intellectual or political, in any particular contention. I dread to think what would happen to the mental health of Transphobes United if irrefutable objective proof of congenital transgenderism popped up tomorrow.

Pennydrew142 · 13/12/2018 14:53

NonExistentFox

Are you calling people here who do not believe, based on there being no evidence, that humans can change sex, transphobes? That to believe we do not have gendered brains is transphobic? MN don’t take kindly to name-calling

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 13/12/2018 14:57

That's about the size of hippocampuses, not the workings of whole brains

great NonExistentFox, I'm here to learn. Show me the study that proves that you can tell from examining a brain whether it belongs to a male or a female

I dread to think what would happen to the mental health of Transphobes United if irrefutable objective proof of congenital transgenderism popped up tomorrow

would that be the idea that there's some genetic predisposition towards gender dysphoria? because I have no issue with this idea, it seems entirely plausible. Still does not mean that humans can change sex

Oh, and please keep a polite tongue in your head

jellyfrizz · 13/12/2018 15:16

I dread to think what would happen to the mental health of Transphobes United if irrefutable objective proof of congenital transgenderism popped up tomorrow.

Why do you think that would make a difference?

Avegemitesandwich · 13/12/2018 15:21

great NonExistentFox, I'm here to learn. Show me the study that proves that you can tell from examining a brain whether it belongs to a male or a female

Yep, same here please.

FamilyOfAliens · 13/12/2018 15:25

Oh we’re name-calling now, are we, NonExistentFox?

How tedious - and predictable.

Avegemitesandwich · 13/12/2018 15:25

I dread to think what would happen to the mental health of Transphobes United if irrefutable objective proof of congenital transgenderism popped up tomorrow.

Yeah there is a slight problem with that: as in, what if someone really believed they were a woman, loved wearing woman's clothes, had taken hormones, had been demanding to use the women's changing rooms and play women's sports, everything, and then this 'test' showed that they didn't in fact have 'congenital transgenderism'? That they were just a bog standard bloke? Where would they go from there?

Datun · 13/12/2018 15:34

I'd love for there to be a test. It would be a test that someone had a genetic propensity for a disassociative condition.

The numbers of people who say they are trans, would plummet almost out of existence. It would get rid of all the fetishists. Which is a huge plus for women.

I have often asked transactivistd whether or not they would like to see research into the causes of gender dysphoria, and I'm told that it is a transphobic thing to suggest, Never mind implement.

It's not women who are shying away from research into gender dysphoria, I can assure you.

Gileswithachainsaw · 13/12/2018 15:59

The numbers of people who say they are trans, would plummet almost out of existence. It would get rid of all the fetishists. Which is a huge plus for women

In that MB documentary they did a brain scan which all it showed was if they had to hazard a guess it showed they were transgender. Not in a "confirming diagnosis " way. But in a response to how they live and the way the brain would act living like that way.

Certainly didn't show they were internally female

FamilyOfAliens · 13/12/2018 16:02

Though no doubt the takeaway message was, “Yay, my brain scan shows I’m female!”

Gileswithachainsaw · 13/12/2018 16:06

Not given the fact that if I remember correctly the train is basically a product of socialization in that if men were to take on similar roles to women it would "rewire" it's self in a matter of months and would produce different results in the scan.

It certainly didn't biologically confirm male female and trans

Ereshkigal · 13/12/2018 16:10

I think you're projecting a bit there. It's generally agnostics who make a virtue of uncertainty, not believers.

You seem to be coming down more on one side than the other though for an agnostic. The side with little evidence. Why is that?

EmpressAdultHumanFemale · 13/12/2018 16:26

I dread to think what would happen to the mental health of Transphobes United if irrefutable objective proof of congenital transgenderism popped up tomorrow.

Well, it would infuriate everyone who wants to demedicalise transgenderism & knock self-ID out of the arena, for a start. If they don't like the current gatekeeping process, imagine if they were all told they had to have a brain scan or hormone test or something.

Gileswithachainsaw · 13/12/2018 16:37

Well, it would infuriate everyone who wants to demedicalise transgenderism & knock self-ID out of the arena, for a start. If they don't like the current gatekeeping process, imagine if they were all told they had to have a brain scan or hormone test or something

Can see it now. A few hours of cheering and "in your face terfs " on Twitter then silence as the realisation that their fetishes and kinks will be proven to be just that in a large percentage of them and then back to accusing women of wanting them dead

EmpressAdultHumanFemale · 13/12/2018 16:57

Can see it now. A few hours of cheering and "in your face terfs " on Twitter then silence as the realisation that their fetishes and kinks will be proven to be just that in a large percentage of them and then back to accusing women of wanting them dead

Bring it on!!!!

Flowerpot2005 · 13/12/2018 17:05

To me sex is what you are born as. Gender is what you choose to be.

I shouldn't have to adapt my thinking for others choices.

Ereshkigal · 13/12/2018 17:11

Can see it now. A few hours of cheering and "in your face terfs " on Twitter then silence

Exactly this. They and you should be careful what you wish for Fox.

Ereshkigal · 13/12/2018 17:12

The numbers of people who say they are trans, would plummet almost out of existence. It would get rid of all the fetishists. Which is a huge plus for women.

Yep. Shall we crowd fund this research?

FuzzyShadowChatter · 13/12/2018 17:27

For most individuals or organizations discussing themselves, I don't generally correct people if I understand what they're saying and I wouldn't care enough to get annoyed.

When it's something like medical differences between the sexes where being one's identity isn't going to change that and clarity is important or discussions on gender-based violence or discrimination and they give examples that are very clearly sex-based or when organizations change sex statistics to gender for no real reason (or even worse, use anatomy terms like the Green party did discussing literacy rates for 'children with a uterus' when clearly they were using sex stats and no one checked if those female children denied an education did or did not have a uterus), I do care and I do think the language on those types of topics matters even when I know what they're talking about especially if it comes from organizations or individuals with authority and know the damage obscuring those statistics and information causes.