To not care whether people say sex or gender.

[TeeJay1970]

Many people and organisations use these words interchangerbly. The meaning is always clear. I actually don't give a stuff if others disagree.

But how can we agree or disagree witg you when we don't know what we are agreeing or disagreeing with.

It's not home unnoticed that you are dodging every question where you arebasjed to define what transwomen you allow in your spaces.

Should we not be using the Stone wall definition? What definition is correct.
Educate us please

"I'm a woman because I say I am. Enjoy ur erasure"

It works for Shon and other TRAs. Sadly this is taken seriously by policy makers and the authorities.

yes, I think the mystifying thing is that this 'you must agree with me but I won't tell you what I mean' thing has got so much traction with MPs and those in positions of responsibility

it does feel like some sanity is returning though

womenarehuman.com/man-who-identifies-as-woman-lawyer-targets-gender-identity-disbelievers-with-job-loss-lawsuits-critics-say/

This is what happens if you disagree. If you think women don't have cocks prepare yourselves for the police to knock you up.

Yeah, seen enough of these threads to see it always goes the way of define woman" demands.

Thats because a definition of 'woman' is a fundamental starting point to any sort of grown up discussion on this topic.

Just checking the posters who say that sex and gender are interchangable as they mean the same thing, how to you relate this to transwoman? Do you think that because they now have a female gender they are now female sex as you say sex and gender are the same? Or do you think that they have a male gender, and therefore male sex, and just behave in a way this is stereotypically associated with the female sex or female gender?

Avegemite - I meant as in when people do define or say anything different nobody really does want to know. It's all an act.

Oh but we do want to know.

If we are using the wrong definition it's important we know we are using the wrong definition.

Because policies everywhere are being determined by stone walls trans definition. If that's wrong we can work together and alert them.

I genuinely do want to know glitter.

Because I don't have this inner sense of being a woman, I am simultaneously intrigued and incensed when other people assert that that is the thing that defines whether you are a woman or not. Especially when they cannot go on to explain it.

I want to know as well

After all, if I’m been labouring under the delusion that a woman is an adult human female for nearly 60 years, I’d like a heads-up.

I'd like to know too Glitter

lots of people here have taken time to explain the reasoning behind their conclusions. it would be good if you would too

English language is confusing. In other languages "gender" and "sex" is the same word. Are other languages transphobic?

I'd like to know too. I suspect Glitter that you think much like me, although obviously I may be wrong.

I have been perfectly happy to share with transsexuals in the past. This is because I've known that to get where they are they've been through a lot, having to prove that they really do think they're women. However, if the law is changed then I will have to share with people like my friends ex-DH, who is similar to a transsexual, in that he likes to dress in a feminine style, ie as a stereotypical woman, but the big difference is that he does it to get sexual kicks.

It worries me that he would get access to woman only spaces, he is not a woman, he doesn't think he's a woman, it is simply a turn on for him.

So there's my line.

Avegemite - I meant as in when people do define or say anything different nobody really does want to know. It's all an act.

I'm all ears. Let's have your definition. You just have to be prepared to back it up when challenged, thats all

"The kind of doctor who would refuse hormone treatment if you didn't show enough concern about the shapeliness of your ankles."

You sound intimately acquainted with the process. I'm guessing you have a dog in this fight?

No, I don't. Anyone who's paid a bit attention to what transsexual women say (including on MN) about Dr. Whateverhisnamewas in the 1970s could tell you the same.

What do women have in common with MTF trans people that they don't also have in common with men?

Other than the belief that they're women, which I agree is not a sufficient explanation, the short answer is that I don't know. I've always been happy to admit that. If you're going to attempt the Socratic method on me you should be aware of his starting principle.

Should we not be using the Stone wall definition? What definition is correct.

The stonewall definition of a 'transgender woman' in their glossary is:

'A term used to describe someone who is assigned male at birth but identifies and lives as a woman. This may be shortened to trans woman, or MTF, an abbreviation for male-to-female.'

But they don't attempt to define 'woman', so one can only assume they accept the normal definition that woman=adult human female.

www.stonewall.org.uk/help-advice/glossary-terms

Fine NonExistentFox, if you've got no explanation or reasoning I think you'll forgive me for disregarding anything further you have to say on this topic

What a thread!

I notice the raspberry person has had 6 comments removed. Having seen them and the insults they included, I found the following comment also made by that person to be somewhat ironic:

I think it shows up those who can't make a coherent argument and resort to personal attacks.

To the OP: maybe once upon a time it wouldn’t have mattered but as legislation that serves to protect the vulnerable, women and girls, relies on those two words having established accepted meaning, and meanings that don’t conflict, then it is clearly important when discussing protections and both existing laws to protect the sex class of women, and potential new legislation which is impacts a group who tend to use the terms interchangeably. In everyday conversation many of us do use them interchangeably and with the understanding of those we are communicating with. But when discussing on the feminist boards, for example, it seems perfectly reasonable and appropriate for the time we are in, to seek to use both words correctly. For anyone arguing the words are always interchangeable, that is clearly not true and anyone paying attention to women’s rights issues ought to know that.

Other than the belief that they're women
Though I don't believe I'm a woman, I know I am one (but some trans women seem equally convinced).

But I’m actually ok with the “believe I’m a woman” explanation.

It’s when everyone is told they must collude with that belief or be reported to the police that I part company with the believers.

Fine NonExistentFox, if you've got no explanation or reasoning I think you'll forgive me for disregarding anything further you have to say on this topic

I have reasoning, BernardBlacksWineIcelolly, I just don't have firm answers. I'm equally happy to disregard you because I haven't seen anything to suggest that your certainty is better reasoned than my uncertainty.

Fox I also don't mind if people believe that they are women, and want to live their lives how they think best.
I'll treat them as if they are women, right up until where it conflicts with my clear boundaries.
But when I am told I should change what I believe, and should give up some rights and protections, and endanger the safety & comfort of other vulnerable women & girls, then I get angry.

Maybe it's tv is politeness and willingness to believe thats what they believe that's the problem.

Maybe we should all just stop.

After all they are all just going to get angry any way so why put off the inevitable. It's just wasting our time and meanwhile they get off on being able to push it as far as they can

I'll treat them as if they are women, right up until where it conflicts with my clear boundaries.

Yes - except, as someone who has never been abused by a male and has no religious or cultural issues myself, I would say, 'right up to where it conflicts with other women's and girls' boundaries'.

I haven't seen anything to suggest that your certainty is better reasoned than my uncertainty

yes, it;s been a fast moving thread NonExistentFox, so I'll just lay it out here in case you missed it

1. Humans have male or female sexed bodies. Around 0.02% of humans are born with ambiguous external genitalia, but they are still male or female and their sex can be determined with tests. For the remaining 99.8% their sex is totally unambiguous

2. there is no way to categorise a brain as male or female ( study already linked to above )

3. so we can safely assume that all bodies are sexed but brains are not

4. we know that mixed sex spaces are more dangerous for women and girls ( Sex Pests Target Women in mixed changing rooms )

5. therefore if we are interested in keeping women and girls safe (which I am), we should retain single sex spaces in certain specific instances like toilets and changing rooms

6. as explained above, transwomen are male and so their presence in women's single sex spaces changes them to be mixed sex, therefore putting women and girls in danger

7. transwomen do not belong in women's single sex spaces

I can do the same for women's sport if it's helpful