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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To not care whether people say sex or gender.

999 replies

TeeJay1970 · 11/12/2018 21:48

Many people and organisations use these words interchangerbly. The meaning is always clear. I actually don't give a stuff if others disagree.

OP posts:
Avegemitesandwich · 12/12/2018 22:00

You're not "drawing boundaries" though. You're saying no to all transwomen.

Well how do you decide who is 'allowed in' and who isn't?

Ereshkigal · 12/12/2018 22:06

You're not "drawing boundaries" though. You're saying no to all transwomen.

That's what a boundary is.

Distinct sense of Groundhog Day here...

Ihaventgottimeforthis · 12/12/2018 22:07

I suspect glitter is happy sharing space with the more feminine-presenting trans women.
Perhaps her boundaries is any fun trans woman who can realistically pass and talks about womanly things, you know like shoes, make-up, clothes, hair, chocolate, wine...

Ereshkigal · 12/12/2018 22:07

PS, it's actually saying no to all males, trans or otherwise. But you know that.

Ihaventgottimeforthis · 12/12/2018 22:10

And those boundaries are needed, in certain places, at certain times, for certain reasons.
It's not about 'denying' trans identities, or stopping people living how they want to. It's saying we need certain spaces for the female sex.

Gileswithachainsaw · 12/12/2018 22:13

Perhaps her boundaries is any fun trans woman who can realistically pass and talks about womanly things, you know like shoes, make-up, clothes, hair, chocolate, wine

When the clothes come.off on the changing room though... .

GlitterStick · 12/12/2018 22:22

Nah, find make up and shoes boring personally. Not fussed what people look like either.
Should I be? Because I'm not.

Gileswithachainsaw · 12/12/2018 22:24

So what makes this special woman essence then?
Can you tell by looking at them?
How do you tell the Ian Huntleys from the munroes?

Ihaventgottimeforthis · 12/12/2018 22:32

No of course you shouldn't be glitter.
But do you have an inner sense of being 'a woman' that you share with genuine trans women, but not with 'just anyone' who identifies as a woman?
And how do you tell the difference? Because I sure as hell can't.
I don't have an inner sense of being a woman.
So what does that make me?

FamilyOfAliens · 12/12/2018 22:57

So, glitter, you can’t say what a trans woman is.

Glad we’ve cleared that up.

NonExistentFox · 13/12/2018 05:03

Or Girlguiding, changing itself by stealth from a single sex to a single gender organisation

Yeah, the thing is, for most of Girlguiding's history, nobody except possibly Radclyffe Hall really did know or care whether people meant sex or gender. It's a retrospective attribution that you're making. It doesn't mean you can say The Essence Of Girlguiding has been traduced because They Meant Sex Not Gender, any more than I can say that Pope Innocent X objected to eating Jerusalem haddock on a Friday because in 2015 we discovered that they aren't poikilotherms.

EmpressAdultHumanFemale · 13/12/2018 05:55

Yeah, the thing is, for most of Girlguiding's history, nobody except possibly Radclyffe Hall really did know or care whether people meant sex or gender.

For most of Girlguiding's history people knew what a girl was.

NonExistentFox · 13/12/2018 06:18

OK, let's think about when a transwoman 'lives as a woman' for two years in preparation for applying for a GRC. Presumably at that point the transwoman is now complying with their internal female gender identity, so that might give us a good clue about what you consider to be innate. Since you're not in a question answering type of mood.

What do you think transwomen do that means they're adhering to their female gender ID? I'd genuinely love to know

I think living "as a woman" for two years in preparation for applying for a GRC is to jump through a hoop set up by passé psychiatrists who thought that performance of gender stereotypes proved something. The kind of doctor who would refuse hormone treatment if you didn't show enough concern about the shapeliness of your ankles.

But my point isn't about gender, it's about excessive certainty. Gender stereotypes are by definition not innate but that doesn't necessarily mean that all gender is entirely artificial either. The existence of e.g. tomboy trans women suggests that it's a bit more complicated than that. It may be that transgender women would cease to exist if nobody remarked on men wearing dresses etc. but it's not a fact, it's a hypothesis.

NonExistentFox · 13/12/2018 06:48

For most of Girlguiding's history people knew what a girl was.

The Ancient Sumerians knew what numbers were for many centuries, but they didn't know what zero was. They hadn't yet developed the concept.

I'd venture that the Taliban don't know about the existence of neutrinos, either. Both the Taliban and neutrinos exist nonetheless, though.

Hohocabbage · 13/12/2018 07:08
Xmas Biscuit
Avegemitesandwich · 13/12/2018 07:30

What are you on about NonExistentFox?

GlitterStick · 13/12/2018 07:57

"They hadn't yet developed the concept" - yes, same as what you're saying here, I think there's things we don't fully understand yet.

FamilyOfAliens · 13/12/2018 08:03

Speak for yourself, glitter.

I fully understand what a woman is, even if you don’t.

Avegemitesandwich · 13/12/2018 08:05

"They hadn't yet developed the concept" - yes, same as what you're saying here, I think there's things we don't fully understand yet.

Funny though isn't it, that men throughout history have known exactly which of the population to rape, sexually assault, sexually harass, murder at birth, deny an education to, deny an abortion to, deny the vote to. How did they know if its oh so complex? They seem to have had it all figured out.

GlitterStick · 13/12/2018 08:10

Speak for myself? Well, yeah, I am. I don't claim to speak for everyone else like others do.

Avegemitesandwich · 13/12/2018 08:11

When that woman of child bearing age is denied that promotion, or 'made redundant' whilst on maternity leave, do you think that is to do with her 'gender identity'? Do you think she can say 'hang on I'm actually a bloke' and make everything OK?

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 13/12/2018 08:12

I think there's things we don't fully understand yet

jesus christ

Like what?

if you want to imply that human sex is not binary, or there's some special internal switch that determines gender and that's more important and should be consulted instead of sex, then (to quote the charming NonexistantFox), the burden of proof is on you

because currently segregating by sex in certain specific circumstances is proven to make women and girls safer

so if you want to change that, you need to bring numbers, not feelings or vague allusions to non existent scientific breakthroughs

FamilyOfAliens · 13/12/2018 08:19

I don't claim to speak for everyone else like others do.

So who is the “we” in this post of yours:

I think there's things we don't fully understand yet. ?

jellyfrizz · 13/12/2018 08:19

The existence of e.g. tomboy trans women suggests that it's a bit more complicated than that.

Yeah, weird, it’s almost as though your sex has nothing to do with your preferences in life.

jellyfrizz · 13/12/2018 08:21

Other than those foisted on you because of societal pressure obvs.

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