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AIBU?

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Original poster

To not care whether people say sex or gender.

999 replies

TeeJay1970 · 11/12/2018 21:48

Many people and organisations use these words interchangerbly. The meaning is always clear. I actually don't give a stuff if others disagree.

OP posts:
BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 12/12/2018 18:42

and yes, transwomen aren't women Confused

not sure what you're getting at there?

GlitterStick · 12/12/2018 18:43

There you go then, you show precisely it's the intent then avegemite. Not the words. As I said - you knew that really.

Hohocabbage · 12/12/2018 18:43

Women are women and transwomen are transwomen. Is that the “intent” behind the ad that is so offensive? It’s just the truth.

Helmetbymidnight · 12/12/2018 18:44

As in we're women and transwomen - you're not

So you think the intent was to upset/agitate
Transwomen?

When or where is it ok for women to define themseves then- or is it always too upsetting for transwomen if we do?

Do you struggle with say, the word children being under 18s, or is the ‘intent’ to upset adults not there?

Hohocabbage · 12/12/2018 18:45

So basically anyone not thinking that women by definition include transwomen, are transphobes?

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 12/12/2018 18:45

yes, if someone is so fragile that being reminded of what sex they are is upsetting to the point where they expect others to modify their behaviour and language in a way that curtails freedom of speech, it's possible that they shouldn't be out and about

Ihaventgottimeforthis · 12/12/2018 18:45

But nobody HAS to believe that trans women are actually women.
So what is wrong with their supposed 'intent'?

Ihaventgottimeforthis · 12/12/2018 18:46

(Is trans woman meant to have a space between it or not?)

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 12/12/2018 18:50

Oh god Ihaventgottimeforthis, let's not get into that - pick the style you prefer!

Avegemitesandwich · 12/12/2018 18:51

There you go then, you show precisely it's the intent then avegemite. Not the words. As I said - you knew that really.

So the intent is to state biological facts in order to maintain women's rights.

What's so offensive about that?

Ereshkigal · 12/12/2018 18:56

Again, the burden of proof is on you to explain why your precious XX chromosomes which, according to you, inescapably determine the nature of every cell in our bodies, paradoxically have no impact on the cells of your brain, which is, for most of us at least, a really vital part of our bodies. I thought Biology Is A Fact and stuff?

Oh no no mate. The burden is definitely on you to prove your special woman essence. Which personality traits correspond to which sex, do you think?

corkandwood · 12/12/2018 18:57

It matters because the conflating of the two has led to a male rapist being housed in a woman's prison.

It matters because conflating the two has led to the erosion of women's sex based protections.

It matters because the conflating of the two has meant that lesbians can now be told that males are part of their lesbian dating pool. And they are transphobic if they disagree.

Confusing the two really is having real world consequences. As the victims of Karen White know.

GlitterStick · 12/12/2018 18:59

So just because you can't see it, it doesn't exist, is that how it works love?

Gileswithachainsaw · 12/12/2018 19:02

If it existed then there would he no need to double down on everything and threaten rape and violence every time someone refuses to pretend they can see it

If you had a man and a trans woman naked in front of you how do you tell them apart glitter

Ihaventgottimeforthis · 12/12/2018 19:05

But, but - the space!!

Tomdix · 12/12/2018 19:05

Judith Butler has an interesting take on difference between sex and gender in her book Gender Trouble.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 12/12/2018 19:07

So Nonexistantfox, do you think gender stereotypes are innate?

I think a) the burden of proof is on you, it's your proposition

OK, let's think about when a transwoman 'lives as a woman' for two years in preparation for applying for a GRC. Presumably at that point the transwoman is now complying with their internal female gender identity, so that might give us a good clue about what you consider to be innate. Since you're not in a question answering type of mood.

  1. wears 'female clothing'. Typically this has brighter colours than clothing stereotypically associated with men, and is often less comfortable and practical (see high heels). Having looked at portraits of 17th centuary french aristocrats, I really don't believe that the desire to wear bright, uncomfrtable clothing is confined to the female sex

  2. has long hair - see the aristocrats above, also Led Zeppelin and Sinnaed O'Connor

  3. adopts a name typically associated with women - I'm going to make an assumption here NonexistantFox and assume that you don't think name choice is innately different among males and females

  4. uses the ladies lavatories thus shocking the life out of poor unsuspecting women - choice of toilet, surely a social construct

  5. umm, out of ideas now

what do you think transwomen do that means they're adhering to their female gender ID? I'd genuinely love to know

Ereshkigal · 12/12/2018 19:07

paradoxically have no impact on the cells of your brain,

No one has said this. Straw man.

Women have a higher prevalence of Alzheimer's for instance. This is probably a mixture of factors relating to both biological sex and gender (meaning sex role stereotypes, female socialisation and social expectations of women - adult human females).

Ereshkigal · 12/12/2018 19:10

NonexistentFox

What do women have in common with MTF trans people that they don't also have in common with men?

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 12/12/2018 19:11

So just because you can't see it, it doesn't exist, is that how it works love?

assume your talking about the special gender essence GlitterStick?

I believe in lots of things I can't see, because they have been satisfactorily defined

  • protons
  • neutrons
  • the earths core

answer my question above about what behaviours a transwoman uses to comply with their female gender ID - help me believe it

Ereshkigal · 12/12/2018 19:13

This discussion reminds me of that src="https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/2G4IhPncF3w" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen> interview on Skyy^ with Mr Harrop and Mrs Keen-Minshull.

Would anyone like to see that again? I know I would

Oh yes! Never gets old Grin

RatRolyPoly · 12/12/2018 19:15

answer my question above about what behaviours a transwoman uses to comply with their female gender ID - help me believe it

Well according to this thread both trans women and "real" women get pretty upset about the meanings of the words "woman" and "gender", for starters.

I don't know where that leaves women like me, mind.

Avegemitesandwich · 12/12/2018 19:17

Yes I would like to know what it is that all women share, that transwomen also share, that men do not?

Ereshkigal · 12/12/2018 19:18

Why would it leave you anywhere? If you care, then you too are getting "upset about the meaning of sex and gender".

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 12/12/2018 19:20

I don't contend that all women get upset about the definitions of woman, sex and gender RatRolyPoly. So remain unbothered, safe in the knowledge that your sex in unaffected! Smile

the only thing that all women have in common is being of the sex class that produces ova and gestates live young.

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