Should my DD fulfil obligation to ex employer even if it ruins our Christmas?

[MitohMit]

Name-changed for this WWYD involving a young person with MH difficulties.

After three months interning in a company abroad, our DD is coming home due to rapidly declining MH she is really no longer functioning at all won't pick up the phone, either to us or her employer.

She had committed to obtaining the correct papers before she left in order to allow her company to square their end-of-year reporting (they cannot have her on their books unless she has these papers, and had hired her on the understanding they would be obtained).

For a series of complicated reasons including her inability to get her act together (but also partly due to factors outside of her control), she has not yet obtained her papers. I think the failure to sort her papers has been both a consequence of and a contributing factor to her declining MH.

I've told her it should be a "point of honour" that she do everything to sort this, and we have hired a lawyer to help... however they require her to interrupt her Christmas at home and go back out on Boxing Day to attend a meeting with officials.

I think she should do this, even if it will be difficult. My DH thinks she should just come home and forget about the papers since she's not intending to go back. He reckons she can tell her company that she doesn't need to be paid so they can take her off the books and then nobody needs to show anyone her papers. She has not been paid so far since she never opened a bank account there, again, due to not having the documentation required.

I don't feel good about this and I feel it's a chance for a lesson about responsibility and doing the right thing.

We are thus in a bit of a quandary. I have asked the lawyers if the date can be changed to 28th December, which would present no problem, but as we await their response to this question my DH and I are not agreeing on what we'd do if the answer is no. My stance is we should arrange what will be a complicated trip out on Boxing Day (two flights and two trains instead of one direct flight), my DH says no.

So, WWYD? The complicating factor is, of course, my DD's MH which seems to be very precarious right now and is causing us huge worry. She is 21 yrs old.

The mistakes I've made in the past and, forgive me op, but that you are making now,are 1) to think work is as important as health-it really isn't and 2) to think that most employers give a monkeys about their staff and about behaving 'honourably' toward them. They don't. And it's thus sometimes not a great idea to give too much back to them for no Thanks or reward.
She's already worked for free. The situation is already affecting her negatively. She is already unwell. They have already failed to support her.
Fine-have her try and sort it in the next few weeks if you must (I'd be getting her home now tbh-if she's actually told you she feels mentally unwell then she's probably already feeling a bit desperate). Once she's home for Christmas she will need looking after. Not chivvied out of the door to do a long journey back to where she was struggling.
You wouldn't make someone with a physical illness do this. You'd say it wasn't possible for them to attend. Mental
Ill Health is the same deal.

What I would be doing is trying to book her in at the gp or for some counselling for when she gets home.

Nope, this paper is not helping with her mental health.
It doesn't matter about it, get her home, keep her safe.
It really doesn't matter, she is more important.

Thank you also for the comment Re “enabling” as we have been warned against it by one of her therapists. This therapist suggested we leave her face the consequences of her “inaction”, in her words. Other therapists are taking a softer line, as is her GP where we live. Why so many different therapists? One at home (country A), one at uni in the UK, and one in Spain — all in the hopes of ensuring continual support. But it has made following advice difficult as they’re not all saying the same thing.

I am now going to text her saying that I’ve decided her employers can whistle for their papers if she wants to draw a line. Explain that they’ve really let her down. She’s always known we have her back but she also heard her therapist’s talk about enabling and I’ll make sure she realizes that we’ve taken different advice. I may have to fly out again as she’s not picking up or replying in any way and she knows that when this happens we come out to see her and urge her to come back home. I think this silence therefore is a cry for help since she knows the formula.

You’ve all been so helpful and concerned that I promise to be back with hopefully a happy update. The programme we’ve lined up for her at home is a really good one and we were lucky to get the addresses from her GP here.

Forgive me if I've missed it OP, but has anyone actually asked her employers if she would need the paperwork if she sacrificed her salary?

Sounds to me like the reason they've deferred paying her is because the legal penalties only kick in once they pay her and the pressure is on her because they're assuming she does want to get paid.

If that is the case surely it would take all the pressure off her to be able to say she has 2 choices (keep the job and get the cert or leave without pay) both of which her employer is happy with.

Has she received a payment via her uni?

Bright eyes, spot on. We’re emailing the new lawyer to ask this. Phone is difficult as she speaks very fast and the line is not very clear. But basically we’re saying tell the company to get her off the books, she does not need the pay any more.

I get why you're saying that OP, but wouldn't it be better to just ask if they'd be happy with that in the first instance?

Might find that if the pressures off your daughter can make the decision and feel happy about making it, maybe?

Eg lawyer says that's fine, you say "hey DD, employer says they're happy for you to sacrifice pay and leave now if you want as they don't need paperwork if they aren't paying you. Don't worry they wouldn't be cross at all"

Pressure lifts, DD makes right decision for her.

You can still tell them to stick it if they say no
..

Has she been there for more than 3 months?

Because if not, she doesn't need papers.
Otherwise, expatica says she only needs ID, proof she can support herself (incl. assets, so not necessarily work income) and that she's covered for health insurance (which should include NHS cover for the first 3 months technically, but she should have a card of some sort to prove that).

Spain can be bureaucratic though, so, the MH thing aside, I wouldn't blame anyone for packing it in. Anyway, asking someone to come on Boxing Day on an international flight is pretty unreasonable.

:-) thanks bright eyes, will definitely do it that way. Appreciated and flowers to all the lovely posters who’ve been so helpful in setting me straight on my priorities 💐

Kikibo - Google isn't always going to give you the answers on such technical issues.

I did exactly the same thing as the OP's daughter when I was at Uni, off to Spain to work for a year as part of my degree. Yes as a EU resident I had the right to live and work unrestricted. But in order to open a bank account and get paid, you needed a "Tarjeta de Residencia" resident permit. Getting this involved several trips to the local police and immigration department, standing in very long queues with very upset, shouty people who were fleeing all sorts of persecution in other countries. There's not a separate queue for "21 year olds on their year out from Uni". It's a lengthy, frustrating process.

Bring her home and look after her, OP.

I’ve only read up to page 4 but I think you need to take charge. If she’s given choices, she will more likely pick the one she feels she has to do rather than what she wants to do.

I’m 28 and my mental health overwhelms me sometimes and I have made choices because they are what I feel other people want me to do, it then leads to a massive decline because I can’t cope.

Take charge, tell her she’s coming home and you are not even going to think about doing anything until next year. Sod the company, it sounds more like a failure on their part anyway. Tell them, you’ll speak next year.

Regarding therapists, not all of them are the same and you will different advice depending on their experience and world views. Getting your daughter to come home and take a break is not enabling her, it’s allowing her the opportunity to recover and have some respite. The world is not going to collapse because she hasn’t sorted the papers.

Her employers sound very unreasonable ...quite frankly a bunch of arseholes.
I would be telling them a big fat NO. Why are you even siding with them op? Your dd is ill.

Plus employers have us by the balls and telling them no sometimes is fine.

Oh op, what an awful situation for your poor DD. I hope you both get some rest and recovery time over Christmas.

I don't know if it helps at all, but my sister went to work in Madrid after university. She was fluent in the language and had a teaching post lined up to teach English, and she found it a nightmare to sort out Spanish bureaucracy, to the extent that she too came home after 3 months because to stay longer would have badly affected her mental health.

When she'd recovered she went to Chile to teach and work for a bit. That was 10 years ago and she still lives out there ( but now with a husband and babies!).

I guessed it was Spain and the NIE. My dd had terrible problems getting hers. In fact she came home twice because it was taking so long to sort and she was running out of money. She went back this yeqrar and her employer sorted it. It was incredibly stressful up to that and if she had been struggling with anxiety as she does from time to time it would have tipped her over the edge. She's also in Madrid BTW and is a similar age to your dd so if a friendly face over there might help let me know and I'll ask dd if it's ok to put them in touch.

She has MH problems, and she's only 21. I remember myself at this age, I was still very young and stupid, and didn't have MH compounding my problems.

She needs to be "done" with whatever this issue is. And frankly, if she's back in the UK with you, why should she (and you) even care about this paperwork? Yes, it should have been sorted, but this company also had a duty of care towards your daughter, and should have helped her get this sorted long ago. They have behaved just as badly, and it's my hunch that they have realised this, which is why they are pushing to pass the buck back.

Of course she can't be expected to travel to a foreign country on boxing day, unpaid, to attend what'll probably be a 15 minute meeting! That's absurd.
She (or you, pretending to be her), needs to reply, "the 26th of December will not be possible. I can make myself available for a Skype/phone meeting on January 11th." If that doesn't work... Tough do-do for them really. Your sole priority/duty is to safe-guard your daughter.

Ok, one last thought that I don't think has been mentioned. Can she give you a Power if Attorney to sort this for her? Then she can stay home, one of you travel, she can Skype into the meeting if need be.

If the uni/officials are saying she's of sound mind, or whatever the legal jargon is, then they would have to accept a PoA. If not, then they should let her defer sorting it out. (Although I'm not sure this would be the best option for her)

Don't underestimate the pettiness (for want if a bettter word) of officials in a system totally unlike the one you are used to. It is highly likely this would stay on her file and could well be pulled up if she ever tries to enter the country again.

All other decisions aside, what's the point in her going back on Boxing Day? Many official departments will be closed between Christmas and new year anyway. What about a compromise of going back in the new year, attempting for one last time within a certain timeframe (a week) and after that, she can accept she's done all she can and try and put it behind her.

That's if she's still insistent on going back. I'd be encouraging her not to. Her employer should have been more supportive and probably hasn't been arsed to help as she's been working for free.

Agree it should be possible to sort this out via skype etc. Even if you fly back later for a specific meeting to sign documents. Are they aware she is unwell and not just being awkward?

Hope you have a nice Christmas with your family OP. My mum recently had to come and do stuff as basic as buying me shopping and tidying my bedroom when I was overwhelmed - I’m 29. It was honestly one of the times I have felt most loved in my life. Best wishes for your Dd. Xx

@Macarena

Oh, i didn't mean they can't push you around, especially at that age.
Incidentally, the situation is the same in Belgium. My now husband (British) was once threatened with 'being killed ' by a black African man in my local townhall, because the queue could last a day or more.

The point I was trying to make was that the employer and officials are pushing the OP's DD around, so it would be perfectly reasonable to tell them go swing. Especially on Boxing Day FGS.
If the employer is keen to sort it/is potentially doing illegal stuff, then it'll be sorted in no time. If not, the OP's DD and the OP can wash their hands off it.

No, I get what you're saying. But if the OP's daughter wanted to open a bank account to be paid, she'd need that piece of paper.

It's like a young Spanish person wanting to start work here and struggling to get their NI number sorted - they don't need it to be here legally, but need it to register with HMRC and pay the right tax. If the worker doesn't get their NI number sorted, the employer will give them hassle about sorting out.