Should my DD fulfil obligation to ex employer even if it ruins our Christmas?

[MitohMit]

Name-changed for this WWYD involving a young person with MH difficulties.

After three months interning in a company abroad, our DD is coming home due to rapidly declining MH she is really no longer functioning at all won't pick up the phone, either to us or her employer.

She had committed to obtaining the correct papers before she left in order to allow her company to square their end-of-year reporting (they cannot have her on their books unless she has these papers, and had hired her on the understanding they would be obtained).

For a series of complicated reasons including her inability to get her act together (but also partly due to factors outside of her control), she has not yet obtained her papers. I think the failure to sort her papers has been both a consequence of and a contributing factor to her declining MH.

I've told her it should be a "point of honour" that she do everything to sort this, and we have hired a lawyer to help... however they require her to interrupt her Christmas at home and go back out on Boxing Day to attend a meeting with officials.

I think she should do this, even if it will be difficult. My DH thinks she should just come home and forget about the papers since she's not intending to go back. He reckons she can tell her company that she doesn't need to be paid so they can take her off the books and then nobody needs to show anyone her papers. She has not been paid so far since she never opened a bank account there, again, due to not having the documentation required.

I don't feel good about this and I feel it's a chance for a lesson about responsibility and doing the right thing.

We are thus in a bit of a quandary. I have asked the lawyers if the date can be changed to 28th December, which would present no problem, but as we await their response to this question my DH and I are not agreeing on what we'd do if the answer is no. My stance is we should arrange what will be a complicated trip out on Boxing Day (two flights and two trains instead of one direct flight), my DH says no.

So, WWYD? The complicating factor is, of course, my DD's MH which seems to be very precarious right now and is causing us huge worry. She is 21 yrs old.

The most important thing here is to have a lovely Christmas, even if a bit quiet! It is that which will reassure your dd that life is worth living and that it is going to continue, even if you drop out/temporarily need to regroup. The company would have to manage if she broke her leg tomorrow and couldn't return. This is similar- she can't return and that's that.

1. Yes, ideally she would do all she can to get the papers, but it's not reasonable to expect her to ruin her Christmas by flying back on Boxing Day, which is a bank holiday here. She should not go.

1. We should all take this as a lesson about what working in the EU will be like after Brexit and that's just for the privileged few who will still be able to work in other EU countries.

Her MH comes first. If she is not well enough to sort out the paperwork then wait until she is. As you say no consequences for her.

The dates are a red herring. It doesn't matter if it is Christmas or not, if she isn't well then she doesn't go.

They aren't her employers. They don't pay her. She owes them nothing. I wouldn't expect her too go back. If they're that desperate, they can send someone here.

I definitely wouldn't make her do it. I would have agreed with you IF her mental health was as it should be. Her recovery is all that matters here. Hope she's ok

If this had been an incident out of the blue I can see why you might feel that sorting the papers could be both a positive step and an obligation that your DD 'should' complete. But it isn't. It's the latest element in a story of serious mental health break down.

Presumably she has completed some tasks during her internship? If those 'successes' didn't stop the decline in her mental health, then it is unlikely that completing this task will positively contribute to her MH. And the risk of the process causing further damage would be too much for me to pursue it with her.

I'm with your DH. Good luck OP to you all.

It's actually down to the company to comply with the legalities re foreign worker visas and permits in advance of the placement starting. They screwed up and if they are liable for legal penalties that's their own fault. We wouldn't let an employee even start on day one if they didn't bring in the correct paperwork, nope not happening. Your daughter should have got her permits in order, true but she is not responsible for whatever the company suffers because of their own failure to follow the laws. Don't make her go back, forget the lawyer, she sounds like she needs to come home now and put this behind her.

Thanks again. Lots of sense there. We’re doing everything to get her home for treatment and she seemed happy to have made that decision last weekend. Now she’s not answering the phone again. I’m hoping she’s not wavering.

And thanks pliudev, we will try that!

She needs to do the right and responsible thing and get this sorted. However, a meeting on boxing day is not reasonable.

Why you are framing this as something your DD has to sort out - as purely her problem?

What I've taken from this - her employer have employed someone illegally - she did not have the correct paperwork before they started her employment. Her employer has also failed to pay as per her contract.

Her employer has massively fucked up, and now they want her to fix it at a time frame that suits them, but doesn't suit her.

Nope.

I'd be with your DH, in fact, I'd be telling her not to bother going back at all, unless the employer was going to pay for her flights and it was at a date that suited her.

I'm sure they'd happily take her off their books, they are probably shitting themselves they can't.

You must reframe this - she should not have done a days work without being legally able to work. Her employer's HR department has fucked up much more than she has. They are trying to make it feel like it's her mistake completely, and with her MH issues, she will see it just as her mistake and another thing she's "failed", but she isn't the only one who failed here.

You need to help her see that it's not all her fault. If she has worked, they owe her money. If she wasn't entitled to work in the country, and more importantly, they were aware she wasn't when they hired her - then they are at fault. She can wave the wage if she feels like being generous, but make it clear, she's not the one who made the massive mistake here, this is a HR /management failure.

They should not have had her working for them knowing she didn't have the correct papers. They took a risk she could get the papers (what if she'd been refused?!), they fucked up.

Don't ruin her Christmas and tell her she has a moral obligation to fix someone else's fuck up.

You attitude may well be a huge part of the reason she has mental health difficulties. She needs to come home and have some TLC.

Nasty and unhelpful wallowinwater

Ignore that OP.

I've seen loads of MH threads where posters are adamant that any sign of compassion is evidence of "enabling" the anxiety .

There is no single answer and every situation is unique. You have listened and taken on board lots of ideas. None of us has the crystal ball or devine knowledge.

Good luck

Boxing Day is a bank holiday, end of. Mental health aside, I wouldn’t be doing a thing on Boxing Day

I have struggled with depression/anxiety on and off for years before admitting to myself I needed help.

During one of the bad times when I was 20, my direct supervisor went long term sick and never came back. I was left doing two people’s jobs, no extra pay, and got an area manager breathing down my neck because my supervisor had fluffed the accounts before going, and had apparently trained me all wrong, I could get done for fraud etc. If I was in a minute late I got it in the neck, never mind the missed breaks and unpaid overtime and my manager shouting in my face while hitting the desk.

I don’t know how my mum and dad could see me sob getting ready to go in every morning. I had money saved to pay my board for months, but I “wasn’t allowed” to quit without another job and serving notice. How could I get another job when I was hyperventilating and sobbing whenever I thought about work? I lost two stone. But my mum and dad had principles you see.

My GP signed me off for two weeks twice, and the second time suggested I tell them that was my notice and let my workplace be screwed over. Love that man.

Prioritise your daughters health.

That's it really. Do you think her ex employers would leave their families in boxing day for her?

Oh I really feel for her.
No job / work moral obligation is worth worsening her mental health!! As a mother, this should be obvious.
If she really is in a bad way, she shouldn't be forced to go there on Boxing Day (or while she's seriously unwell). It sounds like she needs to be taken care of for a little while until she's better. Then it can be sorted out. She hasn't even been paid for this work..

Your DH is right here. Don’t make her go back just so the company can square their accounts. Her mental health should be the priority here.

How would you feel if she had a serious physical Illness? I mean a life threatening one (depression is definitely life threatening). Would you think she should be getting on a plane and flying on Boxing Day?

wallowinwater

That’s a really nasty comment and says more about you than the (lovely) OP.

as there is a notice period for these "hearings" (not really a hearing I suppose, a meeting with the officials)...

Can you please clarify who these officials are? Because this doesn't sound like it's a piece of paper the company requires, but a piece of paper the immigration requires. If she ever Is likely rob want to go back to Spain (work or on holiday ) then you need to do what the officials require.

I haven't read the whole thread, just part of it and OPs posts.

I don't understand why these papers are so difficult to sort out and why the company who need them didn't sort this out before she began working for them. This doesn't seem right to me.

Is it like a right to work thing?

I'd just get her home. The only thing is that it may have a detrimental effect on her MH if she leaves this thing unsettled. So I'd be making as much effort as possible to find a way to sort the papers without damaging your dd further.

I think you have made the right decision OP. I would also add that you are still teaching her a useful lesson: 1) sometimes you can give yourself permission to give up when it's not in your best interests to continue (and it does sound like she has tried hard, not just given up without trying) 2) your family will always support you.

I hope she is feeling better soon!

Mental health issues aside sometimes it is as simple as asking the right question. “DD is happy to come and sort out the papers but due to Christmas can’t get there on the 26th but can be there on 28th or 29th if that works?”. (Obviously if she is happy with that.)

We had an issue years ago with DH apparently needing to be present to pick up his work permit. We were due to be away and had flights already booked, car hire booked, accommodation etc. I refused to change our travel plans as I knew full well that the office just weren’t asking the right question. I.e. Mr Smith won’t be in the country on X date but will return on Y date so can do it after that. When we got back the work permits still hadn’t been issued and were finally ready two months later. And DH signed fo an office driver to go pick it up so didn’t even need to be there.

Thanks again. The paper is like an EU nationals work permit. The officials are the people at the many different municipal offices who normally hand over said permits on production of a number of justificative documents such as passport, student ID, letter from uni Re the year out, contract from work and another doc she has obtained from the same municipality Re her internship status at employers.

Thank you very much autumn leaves and everyone else who has helped with their thoughts, and defended me from the (extremely few) nasty comments. It’s much appreciated.