To think Scotland should be allowed to leave the UK and remain in the EU

[nickiredcar]

New poll says that most Scots think they would be better off leaving the UK after brexit. It's time they had another vote right?

Hackney also overwhelming voted to stay in the EU.
Can we please have an independence referendum?

I don’t know what will happen, I do feel that Scotland are just being completely dismissed in the Brexit negotiations. They are falling over NI and obviously I can see why but it does feel shit when we voted to remain in far bigger numbers than them and are just being ignored. It’s this kind of dismissive attitude towards us which led to the increase in support for devolution and then independence in the first place.

Do travel to Europe and see what living standards and spending power are there and compare to the UK Mmm, why then are ongoing Gilets Jaunes protests in France, Belgium and the NL. In France these have not been confined to Paris, and if you read the coverage you will see that people are feeling poor as their wages are not covering all their expenses. I've lived in Belgium since 2006 and I don't buy much here apart from food as it is too damn expensive. All my clothes and footwear come from the UK, either bought when I'm back in UK, or by internet shopping.

There are areas of poverty in whichever European country you might choose to visit. The difference between Flanders and Wallonia is marked, parts of Brussels are in poverty. People in rural France scrape a living; parts of France, Spain and Italy have been decimated by EU decisions (Katya Adler did a very god documentary showing this). Greece is screwed for the foreseeable future and more bail ins are expected. Italy is teetering on the brink, Deutsche Bank isn't looking too clever either. In some place like Belgium there are huge levels of taxation, and if it moves, it is taxed. VAT is 21% even for utilities.

Mainland Europe is not a utopia, whatever you might think, and the grass is exactly the same colour here as it is in the UK.

@bellinisurge - what makes Scotland more special than London? Also, Scottish voters won’t be allowed to vote to go into the EU, they’ll just be voting to leave the UK. As all projections suggest that a UK’s Brexit will improve UK life within about 5 years, what happens in a future when the UK becomes the tax haven of choice and Scotland an independant ‘useless’ state that doesn’t even have EU or UK access? Jobs go.

all projections suggest that a UK’s Brexit will improve UK life within about 5 years
A couple of weeks ago Gove was unable to give a parliamentary select cmte a guarantee that the post-Brexit UK would be able to source the chemicals needed for safe drinking water. Still there's always that tax-haven status to look forward to

@Cherries101 please, please link to these As all projections suggest that a UK’s Brexit will improve UK life within about 5 years

I really need cheering up.

An independent Scotland would have an unsustainable deficit worse than Greece, no currency, no central bank, no reserves to set one up, and a junk bond credit rating. It would lose the £12billion subsidy it receives annually from England under the Barnett formula, and would have to raise taxes and cut pensions and benefits

Well put

As all projections suggest that a UK’s Brexit will improve UK life within about 5 years

Citation needed

I agree that Scotland should leave the UK ("be allowed" - aye, total union of equals, I see that...not) and remain in the EU.

Why would Scotland not be able to provide for ourselves when nearly all other countries can? More than half the countries in the UN are smaller than Scotland. Other small countries have better social provision than we currently have, better wage levels, better health service provision and definitely better pensions. The only difference is that they have control over their own economies. In general terms they have fewer resources than Scotland. Why would Scotland not be successful?

Yes, there is work needed to set up the infrastructure and social infrastructure needed to be an independent country but we
have leverage in negotiations needed with the rest of the UK. For example, we would have to negotiate a fee for keeping Trident parked near a major city until the rest of the UK figured out somewhere to put it. This fee could potentially be fairly hefty. Also Scotland has most of the oil fields. Oil prices go up as well as down.

If Scotland is such a drain on the UK's resources - all those Barnett formula millions - then why not cut us adrift? After all, the way Brexit is going so far, the rest of the UK may need every penny it can scrape together. But - and here's a surprise - Westminster is absolutely desperate not to lose Scotland. Why do you think that is?

I call BS. There are shedloads of areas controlled by the Scottish government - health and education for just a start. How about tackling those areas for a start and show the rest of us how it's done rather than blaming those evil English?

This x 100. Health and Education are in the bucket, middle earners pay higher taxes that are mooted to be rising again as we are an easy target.

When the driving force of the No campaign was that it was the only way we could remain in the EU

It wasn't the driving force for me and mine. Please don't not assume to speak for all Scots.

The Vote was No, observe it instead of tearing the country apart again.

Has someone told Scotland that they can't leave the UK? I must have missed something because I can't see what the point of this thread is.

You can't just tell the EU that you're joining it. You have to ask.

And all of those saying Scotland would not be able to join the EU. LOL. Where have you been?

uk.reuters.com/article/uk-spain-politics-scotland/spain-would-not-oppose-future-independent-scotland-rejoining-eu-minister-idUKKCN1NP25P

www.scotsman.com/news/eu-negotiator-simple-fact-independent-scotland-could-join-eu-1-4757519

Goldenbug, yes, we've been told many times that we are not allowed a vote on the matter. "Now is not the time" etc etc.

The EU has said an independent Scotland would have tojoin a queueof nations seeking membership of the bloc, afterNicola Sturgeon announcedplans for a second independence referendum.
Wading into the debate on the Scottish Government’s plans for a second vote, a spokesman for the European Commission (EC) said Scotland would not be granted automatic access to the EU if it split from the rest of the UK.

commission president Jose Manuel Barroso, who set out the legal view that if one part of an EU country became an independent state it would have to apply for EU membership.

It comes as Nato's secretary-general Jens Stoltenberg said an independentScotland's membership of the military alliance was also "not automatic".

new independent state would, by the fact of its independence, become a third country with respect to the EU and the Treaties would no longer apply on its territory.”

Mr Barroso said it would be "extremely difficult, if not impossible" for an independent Scotland to get the necessary approval from the member states for it to join the EU.

Being refused another vote isn't the same as being told we can't leave - unless there's an arrogant assumption that the 2nd vote would be to leave of course.

The only time we have been told we can't leave was when the "collective voice" of the Scottish people said we couldn't leave the UK. Democracy just doesn't sit well with some when they don't get what they want.

Nyx go back to the drawing board as you don’t seem to understand the issue regarding Spain. Why would anyone have assumed Spain would veto Scotland I wonder......

So you leave your biggest trading union with the uk and have to negotiate that. With the rest of the uk holding most of the cards.

You then would have to wait in a massive queue to join the eu, might not be part of nato, would have to also negotiate trade deals with all other countries etc etc etc.

So just as stupid as us leaving the eu really but you can complain about that but dragging your country into a great depression is a great idea?

Also Scotland has most of the oil fields

No, the oil is vested in the UK Continental Shelf: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_Continental_Shelf

Were Scotland to become independent it's true there'd have to be negotiations around who "owned" what, but assuming that Scotland would simply take most of it seems optimistic at best

Just, I do understand the issue regarding Spain. I understand that if Scotland voted to become independent and this was recognised by Westminster (as it would have to be if it were a majority vote), then Spain would have no issues with letting a legally recognised independent Scotland be in the EU.

Bejazzled, we can't leave without a vote. So if we can't vote, then we can't leave. Not sure where your confusion is here. If a vote was to stay then of course there would be no issue. But without a vote...

YANBU.

Anyway it should be the other way round. Scotland took over England and Wales when James VI of Scotland became James I of England....so it should be England breaking from the Scots!

If Nicola sturgeon thought the SNP could win a referendum they would have called one by now. They know they can’t so they haven’t.

Poll after poll after poll (with the odd blip) has shown it’s not what the Scottish people want. They will also be doing their own private polling.

They’re not naive enough to think that leaving a union that’s hundreds of years old would be any easier that leaving the EU.

@trixymalixy , they can't have a referendum now without Westminster approval.