To think Scotland should be allowed to leave the UK and remain in the EU

[nickiredcar]

New poll says that most Scots think they would be better off leaving the UK after brexit. It's time they had another vote right?

@Doubletrouble99 'Your anti English sentiment oozes from so much of your writing and I think this is what drives you the most.'

A unionist trying to smear pro-independence supporters with anti-Englishness? What a shock, never seen that before. If you genuinely believe everyone hostile to the British state and elite is hostile to an ethnic group, it's your own bigotry. And the people suggesting Scotland are a nation of beggars might be English or Scottish but their sentiment is not a result of their nationality. All humans are capable of being brainwashed.

But Rona you are not extoling the virtues of independence you are constantly pulling down our neighbours suggesting they are something they are not, suggesting they think things of us Scots that they don't but I am the bigot! You are the only person I have ever heard suggest the Scots are a country of subhuman beggars or that the English think we are!

@Doubletrouble99 You've tried the nasty smear, it didn't rile me the first time and I'm not going to waste time deflecting it. I stand by my comments as I made them not your strawman reinterpretation. The debate about Scotland's self-rule has been around for a while, and is going to be intense for a while more. The old fear and smear tactics helped you win the indyref1, but their are becoming hollow and Scottish women are becoming increasing smart about your tactics.

*they are

@ronatheseal I think we've been round in circles enough, but with all kindness I think you need to step back and take a look at how your posts are being interpreted. It may not be your intention, but you do very much come across as someone who believes the English or British are trying to oppress the Scottish or erase Scottish culture, and that anyone who fails to see this 'truth' is brainwashed by the media and/or has internalised some kind of self loathing.

If Scottish independence is truly your goal (and even as a unionist I accept that this is desirable for many Scots), you need to change track make a positive case for it, and stop generalising about the English or Unionists. A more civil conversation will make the ongoing debate about this topic slightly more tolerable for all of us.

@Y0uCann0tBeSer10us Good grief. So you post a smear then lecture about civility? Glad you have a sense of humour.

OK, you can take my advice or leave it. Either way, I've said all I want to on the matter.

Rona, I ca only say that there is just one person in this conversation who is brainwashed and it's not me or Youcann! You have called me a bigot and that I made a nasty smear about you where? You also suggested Youcann has smeared you when all she has done is point out how you rhetoric has come across.

@Doubletrouble99 This is a written platform of conversation, you can't hide what's been said. Doubletrouble99, you said ' English sentiment oozes from so much of your writing and I think this is what drives you the most', that is not a comment limited to 'how you rhetoric has come across' that is speculation designed to portray an opponent as racist. If Y0uCann0tBeSer10us wants to lecture about civility (tbh I assumed you were the same person) she can start there. You guys seriously have some brass neck.

Our neighbours are the English. You made remarks against our neighbours, you called them aggressive and greedy imperialists. You said they thought of us as a bunch of subhuman beggars etc. etc. I could go on and on!!

If you want to extol the virtues of independence let's hear it, not this aggressive nonsense.

@doubletrouble. Not get tired of this guff? Didn’t say any of that, stand by what Ive actually said and you are free to challenge anything Ive actually said. Instead you lie about what I said/misrepresent. Again, you don’t want to engage, you live up to character type and prefer smear and fear to any actual engagement. Feel free to prove me wrong by actually engaging, but I wont be holding out much hope.

Rona I have read back your comments and agree you haven't been personally aggressive to anyone on this thread.

It would be great if the debate could continue rather than people trying to dig up Rona. If she said something about you personally that you want to complain about then quote it in your complaint maybe?

Read what you wrote in the following on -11/12 at 12.21. on12/12 1.52, and 12/12 at 16.05 to give you some idea of the flavour of what you said.

Not sure Calyx could be described as an impartial observer on the thread to judge some of rona’s posts.
The whole tone of them has been unpleasant.
I haven’t engaged because I don’t think some posters are interested in discussion.
They are very much on transmit mode.
I’ve been away from Scotland for nearly 30 years and most of the posters in support of Scottish independence have done themselves and their ‘cause’ a big disservice on this thread.

It would be lovely if some of the unionists on here could start making a positive case for the union instead of simply stating they do not want Scotland to be independent or that they don't agree with Scotland's government.

I'm really interested to hear a good reason or two to remain shackled to this oh so united kingdom. Scottish voters do not want Brexit in any of the options presented to us.

Scotland is not a region or a constituency, it is a country. We have our own legal system, schools, parliament. We have been independent before. We did not ever agree to be subsumed into one country with the union. So those telling us to 'suck it up' because their region or constituency voted remain can just take their sour grapes and bin them. I'm tired of Scotland being told to sit down and shut up (metaphorically, not literally, for all you posters ready to jump on my use of language and who can't or won't recognise sarcasm or irony) and swallow what is decided by our next door neighbour, who has a completely different set of needs and wants than we have.

Double and cream, it's not entirely Rona's fault if you find the tone of her posts unpleasant. The way Scotland is treated in this'union' is unpleasant. Rona is unhappy about it, as am I. We are told we're talking drivel etc. That's a pretty unpleasant tone too.

Nyx - I have lived all over the UK including many different parts of Scotland in my 60+ years. The point I have been trying to make is that yes things are done in Westminster that we may feel are anti Scottish but the idea that they are doing this intentionally to wind us up doesn't sit well with me.
The flag thing on produce is a case in point. DEFRA et al thought it a great idea to promote British products, fair enough but they hadn't taken into account the fact that the saltire on our products means so much to us. It just wouldn't occur to them, they are not Scottish and have no idea as to the strong feeling of identity we have or that it holds such kudos when selling our quality products. Although I have to say that I do find that strange!
From my extensive experience of England my opinion is that they are not doing things intentionally to spite the Scots. It just doesn't occur to them that we are any different to them.
The other day an SNP minister commented on something the UK government were thinking of implementing, sorry I don't remember exactly what it was but his main remark was to the effect that Westminster had done this intentionally to spit the Scots!

This is what I have a problem with, this school playground rhetoric. We need to be much more grown up about how we deal with our neighbour and not turn it into this them and us situation where we have so many independence supporters so anti Tories and our neighbours with nasty comments and rubbish about empire etc.

Double, I really don’t think that anyone has said that Westminster politicians are doing any of the things we are unhappy about, purely to spite the Scots and for no other reason.

However, the wants and needs and indeed preferences of the Scots are not taken into account at all, not even a little bit. And when we voice our disapproval or complaint, much of which is entirely reasonable, we are drowned out with a chorus of ‘grievance…divisive separatists…do nothing but complain” etc etc.

Instead of agreeing to discuss issues with Scotland’s government, Westminster has simply overridden the devolution settlement, with the help of some rules being changed retrospectively to ensure that the Scottish Government didn’t and couldn’t have a say in the matter. No respect, no nothing. Just high handed riding roughshod over Scotland’s laws and government. It wasn’t specifically to piss us off, I agree; it was because they thought we might not agree with what they wanted to do – so instead of having to discuss issues and agree compromises, it’s necessary to ensure that we don’t have a say.

Did you read the article I posted below which explained some of the issues we have with Scotland’s brand being erased on our quality products? It’s not as simplistic as ‘we feel affection for the Saltire’ fgs. It’s more to do with the identity of our brands in our markets, in the EU and overseas. Please read it and let me know whether you still disagree that any of it is an issue.

You say ‘it just doesn’t occur to them that we are any different to them’. I really do wish that this were the case. But they know fine well we are different and want/need different things for our people and economy, for example that we want and indeed need immigration, whereas they don’t want or need it and so are putting a stop to it for us as well as them. We have different food labelling standards, we ban fracking, we spend our budget on different things - they simply don’t care. Do you disagree? They can’t possibly think that we want and need the same things because we are constantly being told that we are whining or wingeing or complaining or generally being a pain in the ass…so our voices are being heard but ignored.

As for your paragraph saying that an SNP minister said something was being implemented intentionally to spite the scots and for no other reason, can you please find a link? Because I don’t remember seeing that and would like to know who it was/what it was about.

I appreciate your post and see where you are coming from, but I have to disagree.

@Calyx Thanks.

@CreamCol0uredP0nies done themselves and their ‘cause’ a big disservice on this thread.
To get independence, Yessers need to get past the British media and get directly to Scots, Scots who are actually proud of being Scottish not Scots who feign pride while knocking us constantly. They are protected by the media and need to be called out when appropriate, even if it ruffles their feathers. Census says 62% of us identify as Scottish only, that is enough. We don't need to waste time trying to dance with the blood red line self-hating Britnats, they are lost; and, despite their oddly large presence online, they are only a tiny minority.

@DoubleTrouble The flag thing on produce is a case in point. DEFRA et al thought it a great idea to promote British products, fair enough but they hadn't taken into account the fact that the saltire on our products means so much to us. It just wouldn't occur to them, they are not Scottish ... they are not doing things intentionally to spite the Scots.

I must have missed something, but I don't see anyone on this thread explaining bad governance from England as down to spite. So it's another strawman. If you are going to be ruled by foreigners, they are going to mess us, like with this. But not just with this, also on macroeconomics, immigration policy, and every thing else they control. It's not rational to outsource decision-makiing in a democracy and expect to be governed well. In that sense it is not just Britain/England that's to blame for such bad decisions, but the unionists who legitimize it

@DoubleTroube rubbish about empire etc..

Sorry if it's a sensitive topic, but England created the biggest empire in history, acted like a thief and thug across the world and told itself it was the greatest thing to happen to humanity. Scots got in on the act as you will doubtless tell us, as did Irishmen, Indians, etc, as you won't tell us, but it's not rubbish. The British state isn't much different these days except the exploitation network is privatised. London still makes lots its money by looting the third world. If you are a Scot and want to understand your British master, that's an important part of it. It's not a question of hate or anything, all humans are greedy the only difference is who has the power. We Scots have done many terrible things to be ashamed of, we're not any better. Nonetheless, the reality is something that needs to be understood.

Sorry if it's a sensitive topic, but England created the biggest empire in history, acted like a thief and thug across the world and told itself it was the greatest thing to happen to humanity.

Nope, I think you will find that Scotland was part of the British empire and Scots were heavily involved as administrators, settlers, plantation owners, and soldiers. We have our own colonialist guilt to bear - witness Glasgow University's recent hand wringing over massive donations from slave traders.

All this is historically interesting, but rather by the by as far as I am concerned. I don't feel the need to make a positive case for the union as I have never seen a convincing case for independence - I am afraid saltires on our products does not raise any fervour within my inclusive, non-nationalist psyche.

Nope, I think you will find that Scotland was part of the British empire and Scots

The Empire was pretty big before Scotland was added to it, and it's not a case that Scotland was part of the British Empire...it still is. Dozens of countries, including the country we have most in common with historically and culturally, Ireland, have left and not looked back.

Thenavigator - "I don't feel the need to make a positive case for the union as I have never seen a convincing case for independence - I am afraid saltires on our products does not raise any fervour within my inclusive, non-nationalist psyche."

Not that impressive. I can safely say I don't know of one argument for the union but I still strive to make the case for independence. I mean, if you can't be bothered...well....why post on the thread?

So sticking the saltire on things seems to be pretty much all you've got? We can do that as part of the UK, without creating further disastrous borders that limit us all.

Good trolling Nav, but I'm not biting.

I didn’t realise disagreeing with you was ‘trolling’. Oh, that’s right, it isn’t.