To think Scotland should be allowed to leave the UK and remain in the EU

[nickiredcar]

New poll says that most Scots think they would be better off leaving the UK after brexit. It's time they had another vote right?

"Rona has even claimed that Scots are subconsciously brainwashed by British media and that Scottish identity is being erased in some kind of conspiracy."
British media is overwhelmingly unionist so the same viewpoint comes across as the one I described in unionists, where it's seen as absurd that Scotland could thrive on it's own. There is a bias and it's not particularly subtle. Even where Scotland does do better than Wales or England this is not reported as such. Not even in Scotland.

English nationalism is born in a country that elects the government of its choosing.

Scottish nationalism is born in a country that doesn't.

This is simplistic and betrays a complete lack of understanding of the democratic process. Most English people do not get the government of their choosing. I certainly don't have the government of my choosing supposedly representing me in the Scottish Parliament. That is democracy for you. When a government is elected it is supposed to govern in the interests of all its citizens, although many of those people will not have voted for it. It is no different in England or Scotland in that respect.

"As for the ‘fighting for Scotland’s voice’ thing, as you yourself highlighted upthread the SNP are not Scotland. They aren’t acting on the wishes of most of Scotland when it comes to aggitating for independence, which is precisely the problem. Their tactics are childish I’m afraid, that scripted walk out was a disgrace! The fact that they claim to speak for Scotland thus giving the impression we all think like that just makes it more gauling."
The SNP are currently agitating for Remain or at least for freedom of movement and the common market, they are agitating for kinder social policies now, within the Uk; they are agitating against Tory policies on the rape clause, on universal credit, on the bedroom tax, they want Scotland's needs relating to being in the EU to be heard and respected. Does any of this get any kudos in even Scotland's media? No. All we hear is that those SNP politicians do nothing but talk about independence. It's not true. If the UK were to remain, then the argument for indy ref 2 would be weaker. But our first minister is out there doing her best to ensure that remain is an option. Because that is what Scotland voted for and that is what she believes would be the best for the UK.

@Nyx do you deny implying that I wasn’t a proud Scot because I criticised the SNP? And no, I don’t believe there’s more racism south of the border. It’s a common myth but attitude surveys consistently show little difference overall.

Yes, I deny that strongly. My own mother is a proud Scot who doesn't like the SNP.

My quote from your post earlier and my comment on it was simply pointing out that you're what I see as a "proud Scot but". You're a proud Scot, but don't think Scotland should be independent because of this, that or the other. Sorry I didn't make that clear.

Yes, it's simplistic.

But this is a mumsnet forum. It's not a thesis.

But the general point stands.

Why would anyone be proud of their nationality? It is an accident of birth, not an achievement. I don't like a lot of Poland's social policies, but I don't think my Polish friend should be ashamed of being Polish, or proud. It is just what they are. Why are you trying to big up nationality into some kind of achievement?

I have no truck with SNP, I don't think they are doing a good job at all, but they get away with their massive failings in education, for example because nationalists will always defend them and vote for them regardless.

Youcannot - thanks for saying you think I'm trying to make a positive case.

I don't agree with your statement that independence supporters on this conversation have been 'downright nasty'.

Elaina and Nyx posts today especially resonated with my thinking.

I also believe that the UK rebranding of Scotland's products with the UJ flag and 'British' rather than 'Scottish' (whisky, shortbread, it was even tried with Harris Tweed but they fought back) is wrong. www.thescottishfarmer.co.uk/news/16205394.time-to-defend-scotland-the-brand/

@Calyx, I said that SOME independence supporters had been nasty, and I think few reading this thread would disagree with that.

As I said, I’m not that bothered about which flag is on things, but companies rebranding are probably making business decisions rather than making a political statement. If you feel strongly then lobby them, as you say they will reverse the decision if there’s enough opposition to it!

@Nyx we’ll have to agree to disagree about the motivations of the SNP. I see plenty of positioning for Indyref, like demanding things they know the UK can’t give so that they can claim grievance. Their current opposition to the (admittedly imperfect) deal is odd considering no deal is the logical alternative and, in their words, a disaster. But as John Curtis pointed out in the radio the other morning, bringing down the government to force an election is their best shot at a section 30 order, as they can then hope for a minority Labour government who needs their support (in exchange for Indyref). I also hear them talk a LOT about how Scotland needs independence to protect it from Brexit (HOW exactly??) so I don’t think it’s a myth that that’s their top priority.

Navigator, I'm not. It's unionists on the thread who have accused me and others of branding them 'not Scottish enough' or 'not proud Scots'. Nobody has actually said anyone isn't patriotic enough, as far as I can see.

While I get the argument that nationally is an accident of birth, and nothing to be proud of in itself, I don't see anything wrong in being part of something that you see as a good thing.

For example, if you worked for an organisation that found a cure for cancer or helped the homeless.

So why shouldn't people be proud to be part of a country that they view positively, as they are part of that, whether by birth or by choice?

Interesting discussion. As a leaver I have never heard anyone on the Brexit side suggesting the UK wipe out a Scottish identity on Scottish product - why would they? I suspect that Defra has a campaign to ensure British products are highlighted but it never occurred to them that the Scottish identity would be threatened by that. I really can't see why anyone would bother to do that. This all goes back to this presumption that the English/Tories have this hidden agenda to put down Scotland, they really haven't. What they do do sometimes which annoys me no end is forget completely about Scotland and the implications of their actions on other countries in the union.

It's not "most Scots"

Navigator, I'm not. It's unionists on the thread who have accused me and others of branding them 'not Scottish enough' or 'not proud Scots'. Nobody has actually said anyone isn't patriotic enough, as far as I can see

Essentially all Scots except a few raving cringers on the margins regard Scotland as their nation in some way

Ronaseals's posts were littered with rubbish like ^^ this. According to her I'm "a raving cringer"

@Doubletrouble99 You are claiming to comment on my argument, but your comments have little relevance to anything I have said and you misrepresent me.

@MargueritaPink You've completely ignored every real response I've made to your posts. You refuse to engage in any meaningful discussion almost as if you were here just to churn out one-liners for a political party.

It's so often a pattern that hard core unionists hijack discussion threads with disinformation and smear and then refuse to engage with anything much beyond baseless insults. The explanation? I believe there was research during indyref1 that engagement in the issue was directly correlated to likelihood of switching from No to Yes. Anyone got a link? I tried to find it via google but it's slipped my mind where it came from.

Yabbers, according to this poll it is "most Scots": www.heraldscotland.com/news/17286309.poll-clear-majority-of-scots-say-independence-better-than-brexit/

Marg, you don't believe Scotland is a nation and it makes you cringe when people do. You said that yourself. That makes you a cringer, right? Raving, well perhaps and perhaps not, I don't know you.

Double, "Interesting discussion. As a leaver I have never heard anyone on the Brexit side suggesting the UK wipe out a Scottish identity on Scottish product - why would they? I suspect that Defra has a campaign to ensure British products are highlighted but it never occurred to them that the Scottish identity would be threatened by that. I really can't see why anyone would bother to do that. This all goes back to this presumption that the English/Tories have this hidden agenda to put down Scotland, they really haven't.".

Have a read at this please and you will see some of the arguments for keeping Scotland's produce etc branded Scottish: ukandeu.ac.uk/flags-on-food-why-the-fuss/

You've completely ignored every real response I've made to your posts

Oh no I have read them. I haven't ignored them. I haven't replied as I don't even know where to start as they are so full of rabid nonsense. You are doing a splendid job of putting the case against separatism.

Rabid nonsense? Marg, do stop with the goady posts phrase. That sort of language just drags the whole debate down.

Please, not phrase. Flipping autocorrect.

Brexit can be a wonderful opportunity for Scotland if they can win their independence. People being ashamed of themselves for being Scottish are the past not the future.

And it’s sad that you cringe when people call Scotland a nation, Margarita. It’s factually and legally correct as a matter of constitutional law apart from anything else. Says a lot about you really

@MargueritaPink
Oh no I have read them. I haven't ignored them. I haven't replied as I don't even know where to start as they are so full of rabid nonsense.

Quite the opposite, you haven't ignored, you have replied, you've felt the need to reply and advertise your hostile feelings with words like 'rabid' and 'odd'; but you haven't engaged. Always start at the beginning if you don't know. With the intellectual superiority that you believe yourself and unionism to have, and with my misty-eyed Braveheart rabid oddness, you should be able to make mince meat of my comments easily, no?

As a unionist I have never ever been ashamed to be Scottish zsazsa. I am proud of my heritage. I, like everyone else gets a lump in their throat when I hear Flower O Scotland sung by the fans at Murrayfield. And swell with pride when Scotland or a Scot wins anything.
Rona - Your anti English sentiment oozes from so much of your writing and I think this is what drives you the most. Suggesting our neighbours are aggressive, greedy imperialists! That they think of us as 'a bunch of subhuman beggars' or 'ungrateful savages'. You have even talked of 'London politicians selling the Scots into slavery'!! The empire seems to be a big part of you anti English rhetoric. The idea that we are some sort of slaves of the English empire - well I can certainly think of plenty of Scots who took advantage of the British Empire to better themselves, in fact we are renowned for populating the empire world wide. I've no idea where you get this empire thing from. I know no English or Scottish unionists for that matter yearning for the empire. Nor do I know of any Brexiteers yearning for the days of empire.