To think Scotland should be allowed to leave the UK and remain in the EU

[nickiredcar]

New poll says that most Scots think they would be better off leaving the UK after brexit. It's time they had another vote right?

I stand by all of those descriptions. The standard of politics coming from the SNP is very reminiscent of my student union days. That’s not to say I approve of the current shambles in Westminster either, but I do believe that they at least are about more than one issue so marginally better than the SNP. The problem is the implication that that belief is some kind of character defect, which of course it is not.

It would have thought it goes without saying that constitutional questions are divisive. This thread and the many others on Independence or Brexit show that. Am I not supposed to point this out and pretend it’s all a wonderful democratic conversation or something? Most people I know are sick of hearing about all of it.

@Y0uCann0tBeSer10us Thanks. It is good that we can both say what we think and continue talk. These are emotive but also important. But don't worry, I wasn't under the impression you were going to retract anything! Anyway, the problem with having a media run by the British elite is that they project a view of things that represent their perspective. When we plebs watch the tv or read newspapers we tend to adopt that perspective unconsciously, this is human nature it is not a symptom that anyone is stupid. The Tories and the SNP MPs are all professional politicians who try to meet their political and personal goals through a set of tactics that are similar enough to be called 'politics', but each side thinks of the other negatively and wants the other to play by rules that will benefit themselves and harm the other. To the SNP types the Tory types, who are more powerful, act nefariously and don't obey the rules of 'honest' behaviour; from the Tory elite perspective the SNP, who are weaker, are 'disruptive' and uppity like children who don't behave. The fact that you were horrified by the Scottish MPs who were genuinely trying to get the best deal for Scotland (as they see it) and that you regard their behaviour alone as embarrassing suggests you have internalized one perspective. You said you were embarrassed and horrified, strong emotional reactions! I would ask you to think about whose interests this serves. You can oppose independence on facts without reacting in emotionally negative terms whenever Scots stand up for themselves.

@ronatheseal you will not be surprised to hear that I disagree with that analysis (or at least elements of it).

I don't think the mainstream media does have an anti-SNP bias particularly, as I think the SNP get away with not being challenged about many of their positions that simply make little or no sense. For instance, why is no-one pointing out the contradiction in their position on the CFP? They are up in arms that the wording of the withdrawal deal, saying it leaves the door open to some form of CFP-lite in the future, yet their preferred option is to go back into the EU and into the CFP! They continuously talk about Brexit being a disaster for Scotland because we will be out of the EU trading zone, yet their solution is independence, which will take them out of an even more valuable trading partnership - why isn't the media all over that? In contrast, looking at the BBC website, the government is being picked apart by analysts to the point I actually feel a bit sorry for them.

What you say about psychology is interesting, and I actually agree that we probably all have some form of internal perspective that means we see everything through a biased filter and it's hard to be objective, but I really disagree with your implication that you are immune to this. I fully accept that my response to the SNP is emotional, but I would argue that this is precisely because of the facts I see around me and the change in Scottish society under their rule (not for the better), and that it is therefore totally appropriate. I do feel that they are embarrassing Scotland and I really resent them for that. I'm sure you will not try to deny that you are equally emotional about what you see as privileged Tories at Westminster. I do not see myself as naive, I have been around a while and been sucked in by politicians in the past before seeing the light (like in 1997 when Blair arrived on the scene), so I think I'm pretty cynical about politicians if anything. You no doubt see yourself the same way - too smart to be taken in by the tricks.

I also very strongly disagree with the notion that the SNP are more honest than the Tories - I think the SNP will promise anything to anyone to achieve the goal of independence. They probably do believe that independence is best for Scotland and perhaps that the ends justify the means, but lets not pretend they're straight up honest players with altruistic intentions.

I would argue that it is not possible to remove emotion from politics, a fact that many politicians use to their advantage. I think this is partly responsible for the upsurge in support for Brexit and for Scottish independence - it is very much an emotional viewpoint rather than a rational one.

@Y0uCann0tBeSer10us I don't think the problem with the media is its SNP bias, it's that the media is controlled and operated outside Scotland. We are all busy and we rely on the media to summarise the world for us, in Scotland we have a media that projects to us both the perspective and the interests of another country and an elite group whose interests as often as not are in conflict with our own. We are a democracy, we need to see things from our own perspective and we need to understand our own interests as well as possible. In most independent countries there are laws against foreign press control and in most major countries the former situation would be illegal (but sadly even if we had independence and we had such laws they would most likely still have the elite problem.). That they are 'biased' against the SNP is not particularly the issue, they would be against anything that promoted Scotland's interest in ways that threatened them. Their bias doesn't mean they scrutinize every SNP policy (most media doesn't have the scope for policy scrutiny of any kind), it means that they will present them unfavourably and use advanced PR techniques to evoke negative feelings about them and damage their reputation--which in my biased view can be the only reason why any intelligent person could possibly believe Tories and SNP are equally honest!

But don't get me wrong, I fully realize that the SNP take 'pragmatic' views on issues that they don't care about as much as independence. The CFP is a nuisance to all parties because there are no votes in telling people 'we don't have the power or will to fight the EU over your rights'. All political parties must behave with a degree of rationality to operate. Don't hate the people hate the system!

Regarding the embarrassment thing, we ordinary people in Scotland are hardly more than three generations from an era when our lives and livelihoods could be destroyed for talking out of turn--whether in factory sweat shops or precariously tenured rural hamlets or overcrowded clearance villages or in an army trench. The embarrassment and the instinct to keep the head down are both survival skills we might have inherited, which is why I would suggest unionists are embarrassed by 'gnats' but not their Tory toff betters and why the latter get judged different rules. But these insticts no longer serve our interests, and today rather than being embarrassed about being Scottish or standing up and being heard we would be better served by being embarrassed about being embarrassed about those things!

I want to make one thing very clear. I am not embarrassed to be Scottish, I am proud to be Scottish. This is why I am embarrassed by the behaviour of the SNP, who I most definitely do not believe are standing up for Scottish interests - it is not the standard of behaviour I was brought up with. I do not believe the Tories are my 'betters' and I would be and am equally critical of childish behaviour when it comes from Westminster (for instance I am less than impressed with the divisions in the Tory party right now - I wish they would pull together for the common good too), but they are not claiming to speak for me, and so I don't take their behaviour as personally. I feel no need to 'keep my head down' or 'survive' because I simply do not feel threatened by Westminster in any way. I get the impression that you simply don't understand this point - I am happy to be British and do not feel downtrodden. Not because I am brainwashed or scared, but because I think Scotland does well in the UK and can continue to do so. I work with colleagues in other Universities throughout the UK and beyond and simply don't have this 'them and us' mentality.

One other important point - the UK is not a foreign country, it is our country. You wish it wasn't, I understand that, but, for the moment at least, that remains a fact. Scotland does indeed have it's own culture, and many of its own institutions, including many of its own media outlets. It has its own versions of TV channels, its own political shows, and its own webpage on sites like the BBC. None of our culture or traditions are suppressed by being part of the UK, indeed they are celebrated. I think it is simply false to imply that British media is somehow foreign to Scotland and that our only sources of information are from a foreign power who is at best indifferent to us and at worst actively trying to harm us.

I am happy to be British and do not feel downtrodden.

That's pretty obvious! My view is that it is completely impossible to be Scottish and British today except by identity. Britishness as a package is Englishness and for the most part no longer tolerates enough diversity to encompass being Scottish. It's not like the early 20th century when that was the case.

'I am not embarrassed to be Scottish, I am proud to be Scottish.'

I wouldn't suggest that most unionists are embarrassed by the abstract idea of being Scottish, but by things you understand to be Scottish at a deeper inner level, things that at one stage were 'of oneself'. Unionists are constantly cringing, but a unionist doesn't cringe at a Scottish accent or at tartan or some Scottish custom because it is labelled 'Scottish', it is because they see these things as representing themselves; and they have been brought up to hate and despise those aspects of themselves in the course of what I would call anglicization and what you would probably think of a 'realizing your true inner Britishness'. Many of the things directed at destroying Scottish distinctiveness and its civic autonomy and cultural identity are themselves labelled 'Scottish'. Even something as hostile to Scotland as the Daily Mail calls itself the 'Scottish Daily Mail'. It's an English newspaper that ships an English view of the world into the minds of angry Scottish gammons and gammonesses; its as nationalist paper as you get, but is an English nationalist paper and tries to get its readers to hate independence for Scotland while screaming about the oppression of the EU.

many of its own media outlets. It has its own versions of TV channels, its own political shows, and its own webpage on sites like the BBC.

There you go, you think the BBC represents Scotland. Scotland has no tv channels. Almost no newspapers. You are arguing against verifiable facts here not opinions. Yes, the BBC has a bit of its website for Scotland, as it does for 'Beds. Herts. and Bucks.' Whoopee do.

foreign power who is at best indifferent to us and at worst actively trying to harm.

I never said they were actively trying to harm us. They hardly think about us, except when they worry we'll harm them, like by going independent, taking their oil and the value of their pound, or doing' a Mugabe' on their landed estates.

You cannot be serious! You’re embarrassed by the behaviour of the SNP! Who look like Nelson fricken Mandela in comparison to the Torres and even the vast majority of the Labour Party. I’m afraid that is just an internalised bias and the idea that somehow it’s silly for Scottish people to stand up for the,selves. It’s really not.

You seem to have a very odd stereotype for 'Unionist' in your mind there rona. I don't know anyone who cringes at the Scottish accent (in fact lots of people find it kind of attractive..), or Scottish culture. I can promise you I was not brought up to hate or despise that aspect of my culture in some kind of anglicization, quite the opposite! I was taken to a shop in Edinburgh as a child to get the family tartan! (Wish I could remember the name now.) I genuinely have no idea where you get this stuff from, I was brought up to be proud of my Scottish heritage and of being British. Who on earth have you been talking to to get the impression that unionists have internalised hatred for their Scottish roots??

" I would like to see Scotland act like the part of Britain it is, and work with all other regions to make the best of Brexit, rather than constantly whinging."
Yeah, you're a proud Scot alright.

@Nyx I think you know full well that I was referring to our current elected representatives rather than Scotland as a whole. Although you are correct that I have fallen into the trap of conflating the SNP with Scotland, and I'll be sure not to do that again.

@Y0uCann0tBeSer10us Not a stereotype, a reality-based model.

A model based on what? Certainly not anyone I know. I seriously doubt many unionists feel that way.

I’m sick of the inference that wanting to remain in the UK makes you a traitor in some way and not a true Scot. Scotland has truly become a much less pleasant place to be since the surge of Nationalism, and I hope we can all move past this division soon.

Amen to that.

You’re either kidding yourself or you don’t know many hard core unionists. Maybe spend some time on twitter or other internet comments sites (BBC, Scotsman, etc)? And hey, it’s not a reflection of everyone, yoons are only human, we divisive Brigadoon-loving gnats have characters too.

Btw, how come we never hear of ‘proud English’ yearning for German rule? Or ‘proud Canadians’ yearning for rule from DC? Maybe Scottish unionists mean something weird by the word ‘pride’? Oh, cring, that would be distinctively Scottish version of the word. We can’t have that!

No, I don't know any 'hard core' unionists. I just know ordinary Scots, like me, who voted to remain part of the UK and haven't changed their minds, who have no time for divisive nationalism of any stripe and are sick to the back teeth of referendums. Let it go, enough of identity politics, let us have less borders, not more - there is more to bring us together than to divide us, we are all basically the same.

Apologies, Nav, former comment addressed at youcantbeserious..posted without seeing yours.

It's quite amusing seeing all the people here disparaging Scotland. If our country is so terrible, why do you feel the need to do it down so much? If we're such a drain surely the rUK would be better without us?

So, we should stay with the English? People who voted against the EU because they hate freedom of movement, diversity and tolerance.

Scotland is better than that. You people have embarrassed the UK, tried to associate Scotland with your putrid nastiness, ruined our reputation abroad, but are strangely proud of it.

I'll never be in favour of xenophobia or hatred, and neither will Scotland. But hey, if it makes you little Englanders proud, then go for it. You're a nasty lot.

Shame on you.

Hadenough read your post back and then ask yourself who sounds part of a 'nasty lot'. Your atitude is exactly the kind of divisive nationalism most Scots had no time for, I am glad to say.

So this impression you have is from internet comments sites and Twitter then @ronatheseal? I would suggest stepping out of the online bubble, where people are rarely themselves and we can get stuck in echo chambers, and talk to real people around you. You may be surprised to discover that unionists are not monsters full of self loathing after all. It is even likely, given the number of us, that many of your friends and colleagues are unionists!

How have the English embarrassed the UK?

With attitudes like that it makes me embarrassed that you are Scottish!!

There was 30 odd percent of Scotland who also voted to Leave the EU. Are you so nasty about them too?

Many of them were Nationalists.

Lose the chip of your shoulder hen

It's quite amusing seeing all the people here disparaging Scotland

Were there posters doing that? Or is that just the usual straw man lie that anyone who isn't in favour of separatism is doing down Scotland?

I have to say that it seems quite the opposite to me. You separatists spend quite a lot of time banging on about how unionists think Scotland is terrible (not true) - if anyone is disparaging Scotland it's your side.

Britishness as a package is Englishness and for the most part no longer tolerates enough diversity to encompass being Scottish

What a load of nonsense. You really do have some odd ideas. Doesn't it get wearing obsessing so much about being "Scottish"?. And whether everyone else is acceptably Scottish or proud of Scotland?

Honestly most of your posts rona give truth to the joke about a Scotsman being evenly balanced by having a chip on both shoulders.

@Y0uCann0tBeSer10us
So this impression you have is from internet comments sites and Twitter then

Absolutely not, years of real wold experience from friends, colleagues, family, the church, teachers, etc. I suggested that you look at those comment spaces to broaden your experience of popular 'unionism'. But don't get me wrong, Scottish self-loathing is not confined to unionists, there are plenty of people who have some of it but not enough to vote against the independence of their own country.

discover that unionists are not monsters

It's pretty unfair to impute this belief to me, I have offered a quite sympathetic account of why many Scots are unionists. I certainly don't think they are monsters, they are just a symptom of very deep problems with Scottish society, problems that are maintained principally because they facilitate London rule. Unionist self-loathing would go into decline very quickly if Scotland got independence.

@MargueritaPink the usual straw man lie that anyone who isn't in favour of separatism is doing down Scotland?

That is actually a straw man. Unionists saying 'I vote No because I am British' or 'because I see no need for the risk' aren't doing Scotland down. But Yessers who say unionists are doing Scotland down almost say that in response to a unionist actually doing Scotland down. I.e. responding to a comment that Scotland is not good enough in some way. Pardon me, but whether the unionist's comment is correct or not, that is still doing Scotland down. If you call yourself a 'Proud Scot' and then launch into a rant of self-loathing about how Scotland is a beggar nation, you at the very least need to look up the definition of the word 'pride'. Or do Yes groups need to start posting dictionaries through doors?

What a load of nonsense. You really do have some odd ideas.

Sorry to break it to you, but if you choose to venture off BBC and the English newspapers you might hear some 'odd' things. It's a big andd glorious world outside England's mental sheep pen! If you think it is nonsense, feel free to enlighten me and tell me why. It's actually not just my view though, it's the view of your own beloved government in London. They see as a menace; they see the Scottish flag as a threat and are prepared to stiff mothers of dead sons in order to use the union jack instead of the saltire; since the referendum, the British are increasing nervous of Scottish branding, and have sought to efface the saltire and the Scottish brand and improverish Scottish food producers by turning supermarkets in propaganda hubs of Gilbert and Sullivan union jackery.

Doesn't it get wearing obsessing so much about being "Scottish"

Honestly, the flags and all that wouldn't matter most of the time. The British were quite tolerant of our flags and symbols until we became a threat. What matters is the economic and political injustices that Britain inflicts on Scotland, and ending these; the way we humans work it is easier to fight such injustices when brought together by common identity. symbols and stories. If we don't have those, we are nothing but scumbag grievance-filled victims who deserve everything we get.

the joke about a Scotsman being evenly balanced by having a chip on both shoulders.

Thanks for illustrating one of my points so well. I don't know if you are Scottish or not, but this perspective is definitely not a Scottish one. But as I said above many Scots, woman or man, see Scots through English eyes, for the reasons I also described above. But there is nothing wrong with having a chip on the shoulder. Do you know in the USA this is considered a virtue? Not among the sneering English apparently, but yes, my 'divisive' shoulders have plenty of 'grievance' filled chips to keep me going. The Irish got their freedom a century ago, you don't hear any of this 'Proud Irish but' nonsense about 'divisive' and 'grievance' from them, they stand up for themselves. I humbly suggest that we need to learn from the superior experience of our Irish sisters and brothers and be more like them.

You seem to have internalised the belief that unionists are full of self loathing despite the evidence to the contrary - I.e. the unionists on here (who presumably know their minds better than you do) telling you you’re wrong on that. I find this interesting in light of some of your earlier comments about internalised biases.