To think Scotland should be allowed to leave the UK and remain in the EU

[nickiredcar]

New poll says that most Scots think they would be better off leaving the UK after brexit. It's time they had another vote right?

Anyway, about the criteria thing, did you really not know? Dear me...

I did acknowledge how terriblly clever you were spotting that. And yes I did know.

I note you are ignoring your own grammatical error.

Marg she speak with false tongue. Ranty 2

I mean setting aside the question of what on earth are you on about ?Marg she speak?

Vivaldi, can you point me to where Nicola Sturgeon said that please? I find it hard to believe but will apologise if I'm wrong.

It was very shortly after the referendum result, sorry I can't point to a link, but I seem to recall that she approached a senior politician in the EU, who gave her short shrift and pointed out that the UK came as a package.

Nah. Not convinced.

"Well, I agree it should. Much like the EU countries have a veto on EU policies, the constituent parts of the UK should have a veto or similar in this type of situation. Otherwise it's not a union, it's a dictatorship. England with 85% of the population of the UK decides everything to suit themselves"

You do realise that if the 1 million Scottish leave voters had voted remain that the UK result would've been Remain?

Earthmover, what sort of pointless point is that? If an extra million of the voters anywhere had voted remain then that's what would have happened. I can't believe you're blaming Scottish voters for the leave vote when Scotland as a whole voted 62% remain.

Well actually, I can believe it...

A million of the leave voters anywhere, sorry.

Well I voted remain and want to stay in the UK too.

The area I live in voted overwhelmingly to stay. We get to do it too if Scotland does!

The European Union would NEVER make any public statement that implied it supported the dissolution of a member state, or indeed a non-member state. That is the diplomatic equivalent of threatening someone's life. It will never ever support Scottish independence unless Scotland is already independent. Nonetheless, the SNP have got a few EU people to say nice things, like Guy Verhofstadt, who is the European Parliament’s chief negotiator on Brexit, who said ‘If Scotland decides to leave the UK and become an independent state and they decide to be part of the EU, I think there is no big obstacle to do that’.But during Indyref David Cameron got the European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso to go on the BBC on a Sunday morning an imply Scotland couldn't join, and the BBC and the rest of the English media made a big deal of it, but he only said that in return for Cameron's support to become general secretary of Nato and then his successor Junker backtracked. It's really all politics.

Nyx

Earthmover, what sort of pointless point is that? If an extra million of the voters anywhere had voted remain then that's what would have happened

The inference was that Scotland was ignored during the 2016 referendum.
I was simply pointing out the fact that every vote placed North of the border was just as influential as every vote placed South of the border.
Simple

I’d be perfectly happy never to have another referendum in my life, having seen the sheer scale of division they cause (firstly in 2014 and then again in 2016). I don’t want to leave the UK, I care more about the UK than I do about Europe. I DO want to move past Brexit so that life can start to return to normal, and I want Britain to start pulling together again. I want the Scottish government to stop whining about how unfair life is and actually make a good job of the many things that are under its remit, with education being top of the list (it really is worryingly poor right now for a lot of us). Growing up the defining features of the Scottish side of my family were pragmatism and stoicism, and it’s frankly embarrassing that our representatives prefer to whinge, pull stunts, and create grievance rather than ploughing forward and really capitalising on the opportunities we have.

Youcannot
"I care more about the UK than I do about Europe." Well that's nice for you, but sadly if you live in Scotland the UK does not care for you.

"I want Britain to start pulling together again" You mean you want Scotland to pull with the Conservative government in Westminster. You are not pushing for Britain to pull together, you're pushing for Scotland to ignore what the majority of her voters have voted for. YOu want the democratically elected Scottish government to stop fighting for the things that Scotland's people and businesses want and need.

"rather than ploughing forward and really capitalising on the opportunities we have" - please tell me, what opportunities are those?
Name one. The opportunity to watch NI get to stay in the common market while Scotland loses out? The opportunity to watch our businesses shut down and pull out of Scotland because of Brexit? The opportunity to watch as the Government of the UK show us up on the world stage with their infighting and their chaotic, selfish, self harming hard Brexit? How do we capitalise on those opportunities? Seriously? All the Scottish government are trying to do is, as always, mitigate the damage caused by the UK government to Scotland. Do you deny that we have a perfectly valid reason to be pissed off? If the answer is no, then you really cannot be serious.

My constituency voted to remain but we have to go with the majority vote. Are you saying all those areas where the vote registered to stay in the EU should be able to stay?

If London politicians decided to sell the Scots into slavery, there would be English nationalists and 'Proud Scot but' types telling Scots they were childish grievance merchants for protesting. 'Divisive' they say, 'grievance', 'get on with the day job', robotically repeating and parroting one-liners designed by Tory party press men like broken records. They try to stigmatise pride and self-respect as 'grievance', they denigrate defiance against injustice and democratic empowerment as 'divisiveness' and think of confidence as 'temerity'. They love irregular verbs: the British do politics, the Scots play games. Sturgeon is not a national leader to them, she is an uppity divisive prole who doesn't know her rightful place, who embarrasses them with her confident assertiveness and even the fact that she has a Scottish accent. Then they come on internet forums and tell us Scots are not in the slightest bit oppressed.

Are you saying all those areas where the vote registered to stay in the EU should be able to stay

Yes please! If Scotland gets to stay so does my remain constituency in England!

Yes I am being facetious.

For all the imperfections that you have indicated regarding regional/national will and the problems that are incurred as a result of being a member of a union of countries Nyx why on earth would you wish to remain a member of the EU which consists of 27 other countries?

Do you not realise that you're going to have the same issue?

Are you going to want to pull the plug everytime we have to compromise our beliefs because the majority of nations have made a decision that is not beneficial to our country?

It sounds like what you REALLY want is true independence where sovereignty lies 100% in Holyrood.

Relying on any union to put Scotlands priorities first is fantasy and you're going to be complaining just the same residing in an ever bigger pond with more fish in it.

Oh my god Earthmover. Will you read the thread before posting? I am so fed up with people conflating the EU with the UK. From earlier in this very thread:

... being in the EU is nothing like being in the UK. Really. Not at all. In any way.

The EU controls around 15% of the laws and power of the constituent countries. Every country has a veto. or all or most of any policy that the EU suggests, and the UK currently has opt outs for stuff that doesn't suit its interests. The UK parliament is still sovereign and it can exercise its right to leave the EU unilaterally.

As for Scotland within the UK. The UK controls 80 to 90% of our laws and power and allow us to administer the rest for as long as it suits them, but always letting us know that they have ultimate control and can claw back powers. They decide our economic policy and they say they alone have the authority to decide whether or not we can decide if we want to withdraw from the union.

As I said above, Ireland has a lot of power in the Brexit negotiations while Scotland doesn't have a seat at the table. Our wishes and needs are ignored, sidelined and our elected politicians are heckled and jeered at in parliament. It's a joke to say the two unions are similar in any way.

Scots who think Scotland would be better off outside UK but in EU are deluded. Snp’s own growth commission says Scotland will have a huge debt to service when independent and therefore a further 10 years of austerity. The Snp is failing Scotland on education health and public services as it focuses on independance and imagined westminster grievances. We voted to remain in uk in 2014 in what snp told us would be a one in a lifetime or generation vote yet they wanted another one 2 years later. UK is far more important (4x) than eu in terms of exports, jobs and wealth

On that logic, Ireland's place within the EU but outside the UK is completely bonkers and incoherent. So it's absolutely amazing that Ireland isn't either desperate to leave the EU or begging to rejoin the UK. Maybe Ireland needs to invite some hard headed British nationalists into its policy-making circles and straight itself up!

The Scottish government could advocate for Scots a lot more effectively if it actually worked with Westminster instead of trying to undermine it at every opportunity. It’s horrifying to see our MPs staging scripted walkouts instead of engaging at Westminster in a meaningful way, or MSPs passing (or attempting to pass) illegal bills then spending god knows how much of our money on court cases when their own Presiding officer told them it was outside their competence. All of these theatrics have achieved precisely by nothing except to further the grievance agenda and spend a lot of public money that would be better used elsewhere. I would like to see Scotland act like the part of Britain it is, and work with all other regions to make the best of Brexit, rather than constantly whinging. I’d love to not be left with the feeling that Scotland is currently being run by a student union on steroids rather than a serious government who understands that they need to take responsibility for their own actions and failings without blaming it on big bad Westminster, and that budgets need to be balanced meaning you can’t have everything.

Only a dyed in the wool zealot would deny that there are opportunities with being an integral part of the 5th largest economy in the world. The Scottish Parliament already has the power to set its own priorities on virtually everything that matters, as well as the safety net of the U.K. (seen currently with the increased funding via Barnett). If we had the competence and the political will at Holyrood, Scotland could take full advantage of these powers and use joint enterprise schemes to build infrastructure and industry. Taking Indyref off the table would remove perhaps the biggest source of uncertainty for inward investment, and we could use the powers we have on tax etc. to attract U.K. based businesses to Scotland. Being part of the U.K., a heavy hitter worldwide, also allows us access to deals in international markets we would likely struggle to strike on our own, as a small country with a population about 60% the size of London. If we were smart, we could use our powers (the considerable ones we have already) to grow our economy, while using our standing within the the U.K. to take risks knowing they have our back (like in the RBS bailout). I work in the university research sector, and we do very well from being in the U.K., with U.K. funding bodies providing the majority of funding.

This thread illustrates perfectly why I’m sick of the whole thing. The English/RUK/Westminster are not the enemy, they’re not trying to oppress us or destroy us, we are not in any way abused. They are our brothers and sisters in the U.K. family of nations. I’m sick of the inference that wanting to remain in the UK makes you a traitor in some way and not a true Scot. Scotland has truly become a much less pleasant place to be since the surge of Nationalism, and I hope we can all move past this division soon.

The Scottish government could advocate for Scots a lot more effectively if it actually worked with Westminster instead of trying to undermine it at every opportunity.

The Scots have tried very hard to work with Westminster, Westminster haven't reciprocated. The PM's idea of 'working with Scotland' is to ignore everything we say, tell us what to do and correspond with the government via hostile press releases. Maybe if there weren't so many 'Proud Scot buts' buying the Daily Mail and voting Tory and mindlessly swallowing and parroting every Tory press release they would work with us.

money on court cases when their own Presiding officer told them it was outside their competence

God in Heaven! Let someone kick you and apologize for touching their boot. Classic gaslighting here. The UK government initiated the court case, the Supreme Court said the presiding officer was wrong. No offense intented, but you appear to be in the clouds.

see Scotland act like the part of Britain it is, and work with all other regions

Maybe stop calling Scotland a region might be a good start.

power to set its own priorities on virtually everything that matters

Nope. Has no monetary powers, limited fiscal power; and no recognised sovereignty.

You’re quite right in that Westminster initiated this particular court case @ronatheseal, apologies, although I disagree with pretty much everything else you say. The judge ruled that Westminster was justified in bringing the case as the presiding officer had been correct in stating that the important part of the bill (the powers under dispute) were not within Holyrood’s competence.

Perhaps inadvertently you prove my point perfectly. It is perfectly possible to be a true Scot with Scotland’s best interests at heart while simultaneously being disillusioned and/or embarrassed about the SNP’s behaviour. It is even, shock horror, possible to be a true Scot while also wanting to be part of the UK and perfectly satisfied with our place within it. Your disparaging tone and accusations of gaslighting don’t help your cause.

It's perfectly possible to be a proud Scot and oppose independence, however it is sadly the case that most of the No voters who post on internet forums have problems with being Scottish that are much deeper than scepticism about the value of independence (see my post above at Fri 14-Dec-18 14:43:24).

And, yes, the SC ruled that the Presiding Officer's judgement was legally incorrect. Westminster launched the court case knowing they'd lose simply as a delaying tactic, wasting our money, but you are here blaming the Scots. Typical of the problems of our political system, so much misinformation arises because of the lack of any independent Scottish press.

Are you trying to suggest that that describes me as a typical internet NO voter @ronatheseal? That’s a pretty offensive charicature.

@Y0uCann0tBeSer10us I actually wasn't trying to cause offense or describe yourself, but now that you've brought it up I would say that you seem to go for that irregular verb thing (adult British politics v childish Scottish stunts), and you began a post above taking about how you were embarrassed and horrified about the Scottish MPs staging a protest. You also mentioned 'division'.