To think Scotland should be allowed to leave the UK and remain in the EU

[nickiredcar]

New poll says that most Scots think they would be better off leaving the UK after brexit. It's time they had another vote right?

@Y0uCann0tBeSer10us Thanks for the discussion. But no, I am hardly going to rely on a couple of posters on mumsnet for this! I am glad you were open to discussion, it's nice to see unionists go beyond bleating the words 'divisive' and 'grievance', or muttering about 'day job' and 'the Krankie' and scuttling off to watch Jackie Bird explain the universe. However, as much as you tried I don't think your posts are evidence to the contrary (and you'll see I have an earlier post substantiating that).

I’m it sure I follow. You think you posted something that demonstrated that’s I AM full of self-loathing? I assume you’re not talking about criticism of the Scottish government because that clearly isn’t self-loathing. They don’t speak for me or indeed the majority of Scots.

Now I’m off the google who Jackie Bird is and what she has to say about the universe as I don’t even understand that stereotype let alone agree with it.

I agree OP

@Y0uCann0tBeSer10us What's with the unprompted Tory one-liners, I didn't anything about the Scottish government? That makes you sound like a Tory campaigner account! Btw they are the government we elected through a proportional representation system. 47% so you are right not technically a majority, but a lot bigger than what the Tories get in the UK through the undemocratic House of Commons system. But you guys were saying the same thing even when the SNP got 50% of the vote! How come you guys aren't constantly telling people that most Britons oppose the UK government or that the UK govt don't speak for Britain?

OK, calm down! I think I was clear upthread that I am also critical of the Westminster government just now, so hardly a Tory campaigner. Is everyone critical of the SNP a Tory now then? I’m more critical of the SNP because they claim to speak for me while actually advocating the polar opposite of my wishes and behaving I need a very unstatesmanlike manner.

My question asked where you proved I was full of self loathing, as I most definitely don’t hate myself or my heritage. I’m still not sure why Jackie Bird’s opinion of the universe is relevant.

@Y0uCann0tBeSer10us Hey, you're the one spouting Tory one-liners, I've no idea which colour of Tory you actually vote for. Unionist theology dictates that Scotland's voice is always a divided one unless it is a British voice, classic divide and conqueror stuff they all believe in.

Re the question, at Fri 14-Dec-18 19:19:59. I'm sure that you regard yourself as free from all self-loathing, I say the evidence here suggests otherwise or, at the very least, is ambiguous enough that you are unwise to rely on it for convincing us otherwise.

I really don’t understand what you’re talking about Rona. On any level. Are you saying that I’m delusional and don’t know my own thoughts? Perhaps I’m lucky that you’re here to show me the way? Or I am just deceptive because no true Scot could be a Unionist?

I don't think it will matter what I say about that, it will be reduced to some straw man where I am the bad one. I've said what I've needed to say here. We can both agree with Rabbie Burns that it is hard to see ourselves as others see us.

I really don’t understand what you’re talking about Rona. On any level

Nor me - beyond Rona has some sort of weird idea that any one who doesn't want "independence" is doing Scotland down. She seems monomaniacal about being Scottish and who is or isn't Scottish.

I love her posts tbh. Every post just serves to show how ridiculous that level of petty , blinkered nationalism is.

Marg, you are the one who said "No I don't think Scotland is a nation. That makes me cringe." That is a person who doesn't want independence, doing Scotland down. That viewpoint that you have, that is embarrassing to me. Maybe you're right and not all unionists do Scotland down, but you certainly are with that statement.

In my experience, Unionists get very angry when Scotland, as a country, is talked up. They take great pains to tell me how Scotland could not be independent and should not be independent, saying that it would be poor and there would be no jobs etc etc. They don't explain how Labour in Scotland would do any better than the SNP are currently, when we see how Labour in Wales are doing (hint, badly). They don't explain how Tories in Scotland would do any better when we see how Tories are doing in Westminster (hint - well, surely no hint is needed here, it's a complete fuck up). The SNP may not be your cup of tea with their desire for independence for Scotland, but I would have thought that their desire to see Scotland do well, their promotion of Scottish brands and values, their desire to mitigate the worst Tory policies for our people such as the bedroom tax and better social care policies, their building social housing and other housing, their strong position on the EU which is clear and sustained and which is what the large majority of Scottish voters want, is not something that deserves the absolute loathing that I see from Scottish unionists.

Scotland's food and drink industries are famous around the world. However Unionists are happy to see the Saltire covered with the UK flag, to have Scotland's brand erased. They pretend that getting angry about this is a stupid thing to do. They deliberately miss the point, that Scottish food and drink is respected throughout the world as being of high quality and high standards, and don't seem to care about this as long as we are seen as UK and not Scotland. We are told that we are ridiculous and that this is all nonsense. The cliche of having a chip on our shoulder is trotted out.

Agree with Nyx and Rona.

I don't believe we can change the minds of these unionists but it's nice to have the debate online, the hope is that others will read then go on to maybe look up McCrone or research the actual economics and realise Scotland needs independence to thrive.

Those who don't want to be in the EU after independence can campaign to stay out and Scotland will decide for herself. Those who want a right leaning government can vote Conservative after independence if they want to. Other parties will have the ability to run themselves working for Scotland not Westminster.

@MargueritaPink No offence please, but your contributions to this thread have been almost entirely unconstructive and hostile. I think I could pretty much have written anything of a 'divisive gnat' bent and you would have produced the same streamlined robotic strawman unionist guff. Why bother?

rona - I can, with certainty say that your contributions have been hostile too.

This assertion that anyone who is a unionist is somehow less patriotic and not a true Scot if you also believe in the union of the United Kingdom I find very odd.
Believing in independence doesn't give you total rights over being Scottish.
I am a Scottish leave voter so the last thing I want is to be in the EU. The idea that Scotland would be better off being independent but being in the EU just seems ridiculous to me. Why would you want to return to the common fisheries policy or the common agricultural policy? As for replacing our own Scottish notes for Euros, well I feel that's just mad. It is ironic that when the SNP was originally formed they were very anti the Common Market! I suspect that a lot of staunch SNP supporters are still of the same mind.
I have lived in England as well as Scotland so let me reassure you that the English really aren't spending their days thinking of ways to get up our noses, they rarely have a negative thing to say about Scotland - well apart from the weather!

Just look at the hostility on this thread towards Scotland.

It says everything we need to know.

The English Brexiteers won't be sad to see the back of us, and we certainly won't be sad to leave them.

But if Scotland did split from the UK they still wouldn’t be in the EU

I haven't seen much hostility on this thread towards Scotland but I have seen a lot of hostility towards posters who don't want Scotland to leave the UK. Nationalism of any stripe is always hostile and divisive - it is its USP - that we are different and better by virtue of our nationality. Sadly there seems to be a resurgence of this across Europe and Scotland is no different.

TheNavigator no-one here has said we are 'different and better as a result of our nationality'. Scotland's is a civic nationalism, inclusive and welcoming, totally unlike the rise of the far right across Europe that you appear to be trying to smear it with.

Scotland's civic nationalism www.medialab.scot/scottish-civic-nationalism/

"This assertion that anyone who is a unionist is somehow less patriotic and not a true Scot if you also believe in the union of the United Kingdom I find very odd. "
Nobody is saying this. What I am saying is that it makes unionists uncomfortable and often angry to be told that Scotland as a country is or could be doing well under it's own steam, they are happy for the UK flag to replace the saltire on brands and buildings, they are unionists so obviously prefer the UK over Scotland. This often manifests with unionists arguing that Scotland's elected representatives should not fight for Scotland's voice to be heard in Westminster, that they should basically sit down and shut up, that doing otherwise is simply stunts and grandstanding etc etc.
I'm not saying that this attitude makes anyone not a true Scot, whatever that is. It does make someone a true Brit, I guess. There are unionists on here who would be delighted to see Scotland completely subsumed into the UK and become the region many on here think of us as. Where would Scotland be then?
If a unionist does not think this way and merely wants to stay in the UK because of the"broad shoulders" thing, because they truly believe Scotland couldn't thrive as an independent country, then of course this belief doesn't make them any less Scottish or less patriotic. Hopefully people like this can be persuaded, given the list of quotes I posted earlier from all sorts of politicians and party leaders, agreeing that Scotland absolutely could do well as an independent country.

@Calyx, you’ve made a decent stab at making a positive case for independence, and while I don’t agree with the sentiment and I don’t think the intellectual case has been begun to be made, I can at least understand it. Dividing up a country like the U.K. is by definition divisive of course, but I can believe that you want this for positive reasons.

Unfortunately, I’m sure you’ll agree that a large part of this ‘conversation’ has been less than civil and often downright nasty. I suspect thenavigator was referring to posters such as Rona and hadenough who have ranted about nastiness/xenophobia/whatever south of the border. A bit ironic when attitude surveys consistently find little difference in opinions on immigration etc in Scotland and England. Rona has even claimed that Scots are subconsciously brainwashed by British media and that Scottish identity is being erased in some kind of conspiracy. There has most definitely been a tone of moral superiority in a lot of the posts on here, and a lot of discussion about what it takes to be ‘Scottish enough’ to hold a valid opinion on the matter.

Where has anyone questioned whether anyone is Scottish enough to have an opinion? Perhaps someone has asked whether someone actually lives in Scotland, to clarify whether they had a vote in the indy ref for example. But Scottish enough? I don't remember reading anything like that.

And I don't see anyone ranting about xenophobia etc. There may be posters saying that there is more racism and xenophobia south of the border and that this had an effect on the Brexit vote. Mainly because of what has been printed in the tabloids for months and years. But this is not ranting. Is it wrong? Do you say there is not more racism south of the border than there is in Scotland? And I do not say Scotland has no racism at all, just that proportionately there is less. Scotland's voters rejected Brexit decisively.

Politically, Scotland and England ARE divided. That's not to say one is right and the other wrong. That one is better and the other worse. That's like saying people that like cats are better than people that like dogs. Yes, it happens, but it's nonsense.

They are just different.

And due to numbers, Englands politics wins, every time.

English nationalism is born in a country that elects the government of its choosing.

Scottish nationalism is born in a country that doesn't.

This is why the type of nationalism is different. We want what England has. The chance to govern our own land. That's what Scottish nationalism is about. It doesn't have the racist overtones that largely dominates the impression that the media gives of what nationalism is.

I don't hate England. I've spent a lot of time there, have a lot of friends there (and English friends here) I want independence because I want a government that more accurately represents the point of view of me and everyone else that lives here.

I don't think that makes me xenophobic.

@Nyx I think what you are not understanding is that I don’t think there has to be a choice betweenness Scotland and Britain because I genuinely don’t agree that Scottish culture is being erased. I’m not particularly interested in whether the saltire or Union Jack is on products, but walking around my local supermarket I see plenty of saltires on Scottish products so I don’t really understand this complaint. I’m guessing some companies selling uk wide might have made a business decision to use a Union Jack, but it’s hardly part of a wider policy.

As for the ‘fighting for Scotland’s voice’ thing, as you yourself highlighted upthread the SNP are not Scotland. They aren’t acting on the wishes of most of Scotland when it comes to aggitating for independence, which is precisely the problem. Their tactics are childish I’m afraid, that scripted walk out was a disgrace! The fact that they claim to speak for Scotland thus giving the impression we all think like that just makes it more gauling.

@cardsforkittens
When I was at primary school we were taught that Britain was made up of England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales

As far as I know, Great Britain is the island we live on and is made up of England, Scotland and Wales. Ireland is the neighbouring island and is made up of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

People from NI aren't British, they're Irish but they are members of the UK.