To be shocked that Mn has been branded a “hotbed of transphobia”

[Badmoonsarising]

BY Vice msgazine no less!

broadly.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/a3mn9k/mumsnet-uk-mom-forum-terf-transphobia-feminism

Allaboutmeandyou no one is going to walk up to a random transperson and say 'your neovagina is a surgically created wound that needs dilating daily', just as no one is going to walk into a church and say 'God doesn't exist'. That doesn't mean we can't say either of these things on a discussion forum. If someone reads either of those things and gets upset, well that's life really. It's clear from the title what the thread is about.

onefootinthegrave if the opposing view actually stood up, it wouldn't get shouted down, though, would it? That's the problem, the whole trans ideology is built on sand and even the gentlest question, let alone robust questioning, brings it crashing to the ground. But some people don't like it when what they espouse is pointed out to be absolute flimflam.

What a minute

Now refusing to pretend that something is true to make a person happy is a hate crime?

Is that any sort of pretence or just relating to the subject of the thread?

To the poster who asked me how did I know she was trans, I hadn't actually noticed her at all until I heard the guys calling her a tranny, and through my drunken vision, I could see that she did have masculine features.

That doesn't mean we can't say either of these things on a discussion forum.

They may try and sue you one day. I wouldn't get to comfy behind the screen.

I'm still not sure why some posters say

Some of those poster fear transpeople.
... deny transpeople the right to exist
... rattle on as though this is the only feminist issue
... are typing things that are really mean
... are right wing fascists / haters

It's really obvious that there was no fear of transpeople until Stonewall and TRAs decided, and stated clearly, unequivocally that they wanted to remove sex based rights, that is remove sex as a protected characteristic. They want the world to agree that a transwoman is simply a man who said that today, he feels like a woman, no surgery, no medical intervention, no commitment beyond the moment - like Pippa Bunce!

Then there was fear. There was even more when things that will ever happen started to happen - e.g. Karen White.

This is a current political issue. Governments around the world are starting to dismantle sex based rights, to overrule the Equalities Act 201, making sex mean 'gender choice'. It is happening NOW. We have an opportunity to do something to ensure that in making the lives of transpeople less onerous NO WOMAN loses any sex based rights.

Even without the change in law there has been an enormous change in many institutions. If you don't see the harm in the changes Girl Guides made then consider womens sport and ask yourself why the Iranian women's football team had only 3 natal women, how many transwomen are in the other national teams. Weight lifting; martial arts, boxing, cycling all sorts of sports now allow transwomen to compete, often only months after they were professional male competitors. Why?

The 'mean things' all seem to be a woman pointing out that surgically altering the look of a male body does not make it a female body. Is it the content of that or the blunt way it is said? Because it is true!

Even the 10 - 20% of transwomen who do have surgery of any sort will still be male when they have had any/all surgery! They will just look a little bit less masculine!

If saying that is fascist and hating then EVERY human being on the planet is a fascist transphobe.

I don't care how many TRAs line up and shout TWAW, they are wrong! And continuing to shout it is what is preventing any reasoned debate.

If any woman reading these threads can honestly, hand on heart, say that she has no issue with make bodied people being legally considered women and legally allowed into ALL areas of female life, work, hospital wards, personal health care, sports, medical statistics, etc etc etc, then I can only say that that woman is in for an horrendous shock when she comes face to face with one of those men who don't exist... you won't be able to protest, you will be committing a hate crime, being a transphobe.

We have to make our voices heard. Not to 'deny transpeople the right to exist' but to insist that 'woman' means something and should not be re-written to mean 'person'. There are so very many reasons why the word and its meaning really matters!

It makes me uncomfortable as it reminds me of the fear around homosexuality back in the 80s. A lot of that was centred around fear of AIDS, religiosity, Sodom and Gomorrah in the Bible, ignorance, fear of anything unusual etc. And the Feminism board on here does very much remind me of that time, except now it's fear of transwomen specifically.

Who
As a biologist though, would you agree that there are two sexes ?
Gender is a made up construct, but surely sex is biological?

We don't separate by gender. We separate by sex.

I too don't care if someone wants to have operations and drugs to appear more female or more male. Trans people should (and do) have protection for jobs etc under the law. But they don't literally change sex.

@Thejezebel
It’s not fear. I don’t fear trans people. I just know you can’t change your biological sex. It’s not possible.

All the posters saying that their opinions are shouted down on the feminist pages, mustn’t be confident in the truth and evidence of their argument, if that’s what stops them. Women and transsexuals are being physically threatened, blocked and doxed for going to meetings about protecting the rights, safety and dignity of women and girls, but they believe in fact based evidence and take those risks.

Those that accuse us of being transphobic find words on a thread too upsetting and intimidating to argue with, so hide pages. Cry me a river.

Thejezebel, are you in agreement with young teenage girls being told they are transphobic if they are a lesbian that doesnt want to have sex with someone with a penis?

With regards to the girl guides situation, if I had a son who was transitioning to become female (not sure what age they start the process), I'm not sure that I would feel she would be safe in the male tent either. I think it's a very difficult subject to try to be fair about.
The word phobia means fear of. And I think that aptly describes the sentiment currently being expressed daily on the Feminism board. Fear.

Hotbed of transphobia fuck off.
Even an iota of common sense would tell you why men have no place in women's refuges, sports, rape crisis centres etc etc.
And if that makes me transphobic, I don't give a shit.
I would still love to know what it is that makes a man magically turns into a woman. Other than Feelz.

Dastardly? What a ridiculous question!

We have to make our voices heard.

In what way?

I wouldn't get too comfy behind the screen
So you think we shouldn't be allowed to state facts in case it upsets someone then? Not really much point in having discussion forums at all then.

I'm an atheist. I'm allowed to say I don't believe in God. That's not a hate crime. I could have a debate with someone who does believe in God about why we disagree all day long and we could both walk away with no hard feelings.

Now, if either one of us, hated one another because of our beliefs/ non beliefs then we are on thin ice and if we discriminate based on that or threatened/ carried out violence based on that - then that's a hate crime.

That seems fairly uncontentious. But at the very first moment in a discussion on the relevance of gender identity and its relation to biology and the accusation of hate crime is levied. That can't be proportional, surely?

Nobody is denying the biology Robotic. Nobody.

I would still love to know what it is that makes a man magically turns into a woman. Other than Feelz.

Thats what makes you transphobic.

Even an iota of common sense would tell you why men have no place in women's refuges, sports, rape crisis centres etc etc.
And if that makes me transphobic, I don't give a shit

Maybe that's not what makes mumsnet a hotbed of transphobia. Maybe you're not the problem. Maybe you never post anything hateful or abusive. But plenty of other people do. So why would you, as somebody who is not transphobic, be so desperate to deny that transphobia is common on mumsnet?

Jezebel I think that's where a 'third space' comes in. Everyone's safe and their privacy is protected.

Male uncomfortableness with feminine men is something they need to sort out, and not just shifted on females Jezebel.

You can't honestly be shocked by this claim?

Why is it ridiculous?

That's what's happening, what are your thoughts on that?

Or is it an awkward question for you to answer?

How can so many people make the assumption that women will be marginalised and endangered because of trans people being about?

Because it is happening.

Karen White is a rapist, no rapist should have access to vulnerable women but Karen used her status to access and rape/assault women in a mental health ward and in prison.

Women in sports are having bones broken by trans 'women'.

Women wanting to discuss the effects of the GRA are being threatened and having meeting cancelled.

The dictionary definition is now 'hate speech'.

How is that any different to people saying men should not teach kids (for safety), or gay people are "unnatural". We are in 2018 and the fact this attitude still exist on mumsnet is shocking!

Are you aware of the legal challenge to have convictions removed from BDS reports? Ian Huntley, remember the man who killed two 10 year old girls is now a trans woman, if the challenge goes ahead she could walk out of prison in the future and into a job at a school.