To be shocked that Mn has been branded a “hotbed of transphobia”

[Badmoonsarising]

BY Vice msgazine no less!

broadly.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/a3mn9k/mumsnet-uk-mom-forum-terf-transphobia-feminism

I knew one transgender woman from a support group. She had transitioned (is that the right word?) in the 80s when it was almost unheard of in the rural community we came from. She was an outcast and eventually moved to London to avoid the hate. Her struggle was very real and the painful experiences she spoke about must have been horrendously difficult.
Also many years ago, on holiday in Ibiza, there was a trans woman again at an outdoor bar very late at night (probably 4am). There were a group of young lads around my age at the time and the mocked her and groped her and I intervened and just said 'leave her alone - she just wants a drink the same as the rest of us here', but again, I could see the fear and sadness in her eyes.
I know the rhetoric on here seems to be that men transition only to invade women's spaces. I'm not sure about the statistics on that, but I very much doubt that going through all that pain would be done on a whim.
That said, from some of the stories here, it seems to be that the issue is with men who posters perceive to be pretending to be trans for the sake of invading women's spaces.
I don't know how I feel about it to be honest, so I tend to scroll past the threads and try not to think about it. But as I said, it does make for somewhat uncomfortable reading at times.

Hardly surprising, particularly as the debates are always so one sided due to the fact that if anything ever says anything remotely in support of those who are transgender they are always shouted down. Most people avoid the threads for that reason. Before anyone says that I should link to examples, why should anyone spend their time doing that?

I know the rhetoric on here seems to be that men transition only to invade women's spaces

The only "transition" that is required is to say "I feel like a woman at least some of the time".

Regardless of whether you're right it sounds fucking nasty.

How can you say "regardless of whether you are right", so easily, as if whether something is the truth or not, is neither here nor there? What are the other topics that we'd happily preface with that sentence?

Those of you who want mixed sex spaces and services can campaign for them, no one is stopping you.
Stop taking our language and resources away from us, its not progressive.

And personally, I think if you support sterilizing gay and NGC children you don't get to say you are on the right side of history.

Venomous ? It’s factual. Dear Lord.

We can't just pretend something is true to make a person happy. Adulthood doesn't work like that

I mean, I agree, it would be unkind to say to a transwomen. But I don't think that we have to hide the actual mechanics of gender reassignment surgery when it is being used to say that it affords an actual change in sex.

I'd add to that the number of posters who now cite being politically homeless as if this issue is the only consideration when casting one's vote.

Would you like a list of reasons why every curren political party isn't fit for purpose?

Ultimately, there is a problem over transphobia and that comes down to definition of it being so broad that it has become meaningless.

There is a fundamental lack of understanding that even if a subject is sensitive or difficult that doesn't mean we should suspect critical thought around the subject. Its unfortunately being used as a shield to prevent discussion of other subjects and hold people to the same level of account you'd expect from anyone else.

My real fear about the lack of moderate conversation about the subject, is that it will lead to really very series oppression or harm to various groups, particularly vulnerable groups. For example there are various ethical reasons which we should talk about this which relate to health of women, children and the trans community itself.

This idea that conversation is fundamentally purely about a hatred of trans people is far too simplistic. There are also concerns about how militant trans activism is actually harmful to parts of its own community.

The black and white thinking is the problem. Like everything in life it comes in shades of gray. We need to talk to understand and to work though problems not pretend that problems don't exist or abuse power to hide problems. Censorship, does not resolve points of social conflict.

This is where recent failings in the media and by politicians are so apparent in the trans debate. This is by no means restricted to the trans debate, but its particularly visible in this area.

Of course, its far easier to write an opinion piece (whilst claiming its journalism) about why MN is so transphobic rather than to look at why we got to where we are and where do we go from here. That requires a deeper understanding and more than crappy slogans.

Honestly I despair of it all. In the end it serves the ends of those who would happily seek to destroy ALL rights, if we fail to understand the foundations, principles and history of rights.

And thats where we are headed right now.

WhoNose88

And by the way, that is my opinion as a woman.

What do you mean when you say you are a woman?

Thejezebel Hiw did you know the second person was a transwoman and not a woman?

Those people here defending the TRA ideology need to look a little bit closer. It is a misoygynist, racist and homophobic movement and is getting exposed as such more and more each day.

3WildOnes, as far as I know what happened was that Helen Staniland, who posts under her own name on Twitter, put out an open invitation to people to crowdfund an opinion poll on this issue (I didn't contribute - probably would have done if she'd been struggling to get the money together but it all happened very quickly). She got the funds together, commissioned Populus, an established polling company, discussed with them the questions she wanted asked and how best to word them, and then they carried out the research and analysed it. She released the results and gave permission to FairPlayforWomen to put it on their website, which is the link I gave above.

I know we can all argue about opinion polls, so if you have any criticisms to make, go ahead. I thought the findings were unsurprising, but then I suppose I would, given that most people appear to think much as I do on this issue.

Elfinablender thats fine but you don't use things like that to beat people with. They are human beings as well and deserve not to be abused.

There is nothing at all in the Vice article that points to actual transphobia. Having concerns about self ID, medicating children and the implications on other minorities isn't transphobia. Why is Vice not going after The Times, who basically cover the same ground as Mumsnet Feminism? Is it because we all sneaked out of the kitchen?!

Thejezebel maybe you shouldn't scroll past, then - perhaps if you read some of the threads you would better understand what it is people are concerned about.

Venomous ? It’s factual. Dear Lord.

Well go tell them to their face then.

River yes there are definitely issues surrounding transgender that are important and need to be discussed, but on MN I've not read discussions or debates, because a lot of the time if you have an opposing view you're shouted down or patronised.

Sooty yes I agree completely.

We can't just pretend something is true to make a person happy. Adulthood doesn't work like that

Hate crime does exist.

Like I guess most people, I don't give a fuck if someone is trans but I do give a big fuck if they try to impose themselves on women's spaces.

Putting a trans woman who still has their penis into a women's prison is wrong, especially when they have a criminal record of rape and sexual/violent abuse against women.

Allowing trans women to participate in women only sport is wrong, as witnessed by the recent race where 3 trans women came in 1st 2nd and 3rd place. They may have had the surgery and the medication but they still possess far more testosterone than a woman, thus giving them a massive advantage.

Women don't want trans women in refuges or traditional safe for women spaces. How is that unreasonable?

Believing the above does not make me transphobic, just a woman who believes in women defending the rights for which they fought long and hard.

Points out that a neovagina isn't the same as a vagina isn't a hate crime. Nor is pointing out that women don't have penises

They couldn’t disagree with the fact though. It’s not being mean or nasty for the sake of it. It’s being truthful.

@PositivelyPerf Ah, that's a question, isn't it! I meant that I have an opinion as a woman, just like all those other opinionated women who's opinions I'm supposed to be following. My opinion is also supposed to count, isn't it?

I feel sorry for a lot of trans people that have to go through surgery and hormone treatments only to have their need to be a woman questioned and derided.

I don't feel sorry for men 'identifying' as women using it for any gain other than a need to be a woman.

My genetics are XX, but as a biologist I also know that genetics are more complicated than XX and XY, so it's far too black and white saying gender is just male and female.

"Well go tell them to their face then."

Maybe if more people were honest instead of patronising trans identified people we wouldn't be in this situation now.

I would certainly query someone if they suggested a vagina medically constructed out of an inverted penis is the same as mine. At the very least, one eyebrow would be raised to register my puzzlement at their statement.