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Original poster

To be shocked that Mn has been branded a “hotbed of transphobia”

999 replies

Badmoonsarising · 07/12/2018 14:20

BY Vice msgazine no less!

broadly.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/a3mn9k/mumsnet-uk-mom-forum-terf-transphobia-feminism

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Weetabixandshreddies · 08/12/2018 11:10

What would you think of someone who was born in Spain, had lived their whole life there, had Spanish parents and only spoke Spanish, but said 'I feel British', and expected to be given a British passport?

If they fulfilled the criteria to be given a British passport then absolutely, I will recognise them as British.

sackrifice · 08/12/2018 11:10

But not from women's groups set up and run by women for women. Right, gotcha, thank you for educating us

I know, right?

Earlywalker · 08/12/2018 11:10

I’m saying just because one group of people historically oppressed another group of people, It does not give the previously oppressed group a free pass to start oppressing the other group.

The whole ‘men are dangerous, woman are all victims’ annoys me and I say that as someone who’s experienced more than my fair share of Male sexual and physical violence.

I want girls to grow up empowered and boys to grow up without being told they’re dangerous. How can times ever change and people move forward if we keep treating groups of people as a statistic. It’s not healthy and I am not a victim.

merrymouse · 08/12/2018 11:10

Earlywalker, that is exactly the criticism that has been made about ‘black lives matter’ by people who seek out reasons to discredit them.

It’s why Trump supporters share ‘all lives matter’ memes. Call the other person the racist and ignore everything they have to say.

See also MRAs.

The point of the article in Vice is not to challenge transphobia but to shut down all discussion of this topic on MN.

Hohocabbage · 08/12/2018 11:11

I am to all practical purposes Scottish, but I never have and never will tick Scottish on a form for nationality, because I was born elsewhere and have an affiliation there too. I would be surprised if first generation immigrants say they are English etc rather than Polish or French. Having citizenship makes you a citizen of wherever, it’s not a full explanation of your national identity.

Hyppolyta · 08/12/2018 11:12

Being British is not really comparable, because that isnt based in biology.

Comparing it to race would be closer. If a white person claims to feel Indian, love Indian food and dresses in stereotypically Indian clothes, are they Indian?

Of course not.

Hyppolyta · 08/12/2018 11:12

Being British is not really comparable, because that isnt based in biology.

Comparing it to race would be closer. If a white person claims to feel Indian, love Indian food and dresses in stereotypically Indian clothes, are they Indian?

Of course not.

Calvinsmam · 08/12/2018 11:12

I wasn’t talking about being british I was talking about being an English person being considered Scottish.
Ask a Scottish person if they consider someone born and raised in England to be Scottish because they’ve lived there a few years and really feel Scottish.

OldCrone · 08/12/2018 11:12

Individuals need to take personal responsibility. We don't need an organisation, of any kind, to educate us.

This is getting weird now. Do you think all schools and universities should be abolished so everyone can take responsibility for their own learning? We can educate ourselves a certain amount from books and the internet, but sometimes it's useful to have a real person around, a 'teacher', to ask questions when you're unsure of something.

Hohocabbage · 08/12/2018 11:13

Earlywalker we are not previously oppressed by men, we are currently oppressed by men.

Weetabixandshreddies · 08/12/2018 11:14

But not from women's groups set up and run by women for women. Right, gotcha, thank you for educating us confused

If you are going to deliberately and willfully twist my words then what is the point?

My point is that we do not need a specific organisation to educate us about our bodies.

I do not have to sit passively waiting for someone to come along and educate me. If there are organisations that can provide information, great. If not, I don't just have to shrug my shoulders and accept not being educated because there is no one to do it to me. I can go and get the information for myself.

Take from that what you will. Misconstrue it how you will.

EmpressAdultHumanFemale · 08/12/2018 11:15

Comparing it to race would be closer. If a white person claims to feel Indian, love Indian food and dresses in stereotypically Indian clothes, are they Indian?

Of course not.

And Eve disapproves of appropriation when it comes to race, but is apparently unable to translate that to sex.

UpstartCrow · 08/12/2018 11:17

Weetabixandshreddies

Its disgusting to disparage a group that you are so ignorant of.
Our bodies, Ourselves was not some lofty organisation preaching to the passive masses.

OldCrone · 08/12/2018 11:17

If they fulfilled the criteria to be given a British passport then absolutely, I will recognise them as British.

Would you not question how someone Spanish, of Spanish heritage, who only spoke Spanish and had never left Spain could in any way 'feel British'?

merrymouse · 08/12/2018 11:18

men are dangerous, woman are all victims

All men are not dangerous. That is why 99.99% of society is not segregated.

However, most men can physically overpower most women and there is very little that women can do about it except avoiding being in a situation where they are at risk of being overpowered.

Its just biology. The Black Widow is a character in a comic, not real life and the average man is about 4 inches taller and a couple of stone heavier than the average woman.

I empower myself by being realistic about risk and planning to minimise it as appropriate, but I can’t change the laws of physics.

Weetabixandshreddies · 08/12/2018 11:19

This is getting weird now. Do you think all schools and universities should be abolished so everyone can take responsibility for their own learning

Yes it's getting weird because you are seizing small snippets of what I am saying without reading the whole thread to see why I initially made a comment about education.

A PP said that women weren't educated about their bodies or pregnancy. My reply was, particularly in the UK, it is easy for individuals to get that information for themselves, not sit and wait for someone to educate them.

Don't extrapolate that comment to now refer to all education.

Weetabixandshreddies · 08/12/2018 11:20

Its disgusting to disparage a group that you are so ignorant of.
Please reference where I have disparaged this organisation.

merrymouse · 08/12/2018 11:21

O no more have a gender identity than a national identity.

If somebody has a British passport they are British, whatever their background.

However, nobody gets a British passport because they identify as British.

inmyfeelings · 08/12/2018 11:21

If they fulfilled the criteria to be given a British passport then absolutely

Ah, So you think there's a 'criteria' that has to be filled , not just a mere feeling ? I'm sure you will agree that it is the Country you want to transfer to and not the country of origin that gets to dictate what that criteria.

Why is it ok to say there's a set criteria for citizenship but not for sex ? Why do men get to dictate what the criteria are for becoming a woman ?

Citizenship is transferable anyway . Race and sex are not .

OldCrone · 08/12/2018 11:22

I do not have to sit passively waiting for someone to come along and educate me.

My understanding is that our bodies ourselves was a grassroots organisation set up by women to help other women.
www.ourbodiesourselves.org/our-story/

Why do you think women taking it upon themselves to organise like that is such a negative thing?

Weetabixandshreddies · 08/12/2018 11:22

Would you not question how someone Spanish, of Spanish heritage, who only spoke Spanish and had never left Spain could in any way 'feel British'?

No. What does it mean to "feel British"? I have no idea and yet I say that I feel British. If anyone else wants to say it I have no view on it. It doesn't affect me or how I feel.

UpstartCrow · 08/12/2018 11:23

Its OK I don't need to; everyone else can see your comments.

merrymouse · 08/12/2018 11:25

I’m very happy for men to comment on sex because the definition of female or male is a question of science. It’s not a club.

Weetabixandshreddies · 08/12/2018 11:26

Ah, So you think there's a 'criteria' that has to be filled , not just a mere feeling ?

No criteria, in my view, to feel British.

The question was should anyone who feels British get a passport. There are criteria applied as to who can have a British passport. Obviously then, in order to get a passport, they have to meet that criteria. That isn't up to me. It is the law.

I have no problem with anyone saying they " feel British". It doesn't diminish me for them to say how they feel.

OldCrone · 08/12/2018 11:26

I don't just have to shrug my shoulders and accept not being educated because there is no one to do it to me. I can go and get the information for myself.

Just read your post again, and I think I can see where you're coming from. If there's an organisation, you'll use it and if not you'll just educate yourself. But you wouldn't dream of helping to set up an organisation to help other women and girls who might be less educated than you, or less able to find the information than you are. And if there's one already and it folds, then who cares - because you're OK.