To be shocked that Mn has been branded a “hotbed of transphobia”

[Badmoonsarising]

BY Vice msgazine no less!

broadly.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/a3mn9k/mumsnet-uk-mom-forum-terf-transphobia-feminism

And yet, there are threads on here ripping celebrities apart for their physical appearance.

And that is also disgusting. It's none of my business what anyone else looks like, dresses like or what surgery they have.

It's madness to be telling children that there are certain things that are sex specific and that if they want to do things reserved for the opposite sex (Really?!?) they are trapped in the wrong body and must change it.

Complete madness.

step

What you’ve described there is gender dysphoria not being psychologicaly female.

Or shout abuse at them and tell them to f*ck off?

Who’s advocating shouting abuse at them and telling them to fuck off??
In fact what you go on to describe is literally what most people on the feminist boards have been saying, we would support a third space. YES to a third space.

It’s not what they are pushing for though and you’re a terf to suggest it.

the need to bang that out in thread after thread over on the feminism section makes you mumnetters look a little militant

I would say you need to start dressing up in masks and urinating on office doors to look militant.

I also think it's highly ironic that this article has come from Vice, because if you look at the comments under any Vice article about trans on FB, the comments (mostly from men) are almost exclusively saying how ridiculous it is to believe that men are women and loads of pisstaking actual transphobia. From men who aren't afraid to say this stuff because they know they won't get called out on it.

Same for any comments section which is largely male, eg. The Sky News twitter about Jess Bradley etc. Interestingly on The Pool, a female dominated comments section, there is much more of a 'debate' about trans and that's only because some women aren't afraid to put their head above the parapet.

And then of course MN gets widely crucified.

The whole thing is quite interesting to observe really.

Oh wait sorry step I misread you I thought you were saying a third space not a unisex space.

No, I don’t want to share my space with men until they can sort out the Male violence problem.

You look at your body and think 'this isn't me. I'm not this sex. I feel like a woman/man but my biology says I'm not.' It must be an utterly terrifying place to be.

You can't 'feel like a woman' if you're a man, or vice versa. How can you feel like something you are not? You have no idea what it feels like to be the opposite sex.

Trans women aren't safe in male spaces but they aren't welcome in female spaces either.

They're not welcome in female spaces because they make some women and girls feel unsafe. If they're not safe in male spaces that's a problem for men to sort out. Perhaps men could consider being less violent towards those they see as different.

Self ID is a horrendous idea because it is so open to abuse and many transwomen have agreed with that.

Agree Step. Ironically there is a lot of agreement on the central issue of Self ID which has prompted all the debate and threads.

Think of the pelvic mesh scandal that happened extremely recently
Yes that was a scandal. But so are lots of other medical advances. They are developed with the belief that they are a positive treatment and then problems come to light with long term use. It isn't a phenomenon restricted only to female medicine.

I realised that I have just as much right to be here as anyone else and I can (mostly) ignore the posters banging on about it

Oh absolutely daily and its fairly easy to avoid threads which piss us off

I probably wouldn't even make the comment if people were saying FWR was a hotbed

I still dont think its a hot bed but i would understand the comment

Its the blanket mumsnet which encompasses so many people and threads and subjects which i dont get

I think that the concept of psychologically female might be clumsy but it's valid.

No. This plays into the idea of a 'lady brain' and women being intellectually inferior.

It isn't a phenomenon restricted only to female medicine.

Female medicine IS considerably behind male medicine though.

My local pool has male and female areas and a unisex changing area. Unisex area has cubicles. Male and female areas are mainly open with a couple of cublicles. It seems to work to a good way to meet a variety of needs.

No, that's perfect, a third space is perfect. It's a solution. It's what women and transwomen should be fighting for if it works for everyone. My only concern is that so few people would end up using the trans facilities that it would open up the very real threat that trans women would be end up being sexually assaulted.

Just to be clear, at our pool nobody is undressing in front of anyone else. The cubicles are for that. It's always so packed when I go that I can't see how anyone would get away with sexually assaulting anyone else. BUT I appreciate I'm not there when it's quiet, so maybe that's a different case. Perhaps cameras in the shared areas monitored by staff is the answer? I don't know, I'm not saying I do, I'm just saying we need to have the conversation.

You can't 'feel like a woman' if you're a man, or vice versa. How can you feel like something you are not? You have no idea what it feels like to be the opposite sex.

And maybe they don't "feel like a woman" but look at their body and don't identify with it, to them it's wrong. Who knows what that "feels" like? How do you describe that to others in terms that they understand? Maybe language doesn't exist to adequately describe that feeling yet they know that by changing their outward appearance they can change they lessen the distress that they feel. I can understand then why that is described as being born in the wrong body.

Try and describe any emotion to someone else. What does happiness, sadness, awe, worry feel like? I know what they feel like to me. Is it the same for everyone? How can I describe that feeling to someone else?

Agh! @OldCrone - how do you know someone can't feel like they are a woman trapped in a man's body?! You don't get to decide how other people feel, and to decide whether that is legitimate or not. Who made you God?!

I'm not

It isn't a phenomenon restricted only to female medicine.

Most drugs on the market haven’t even been tested on the female body because our hormones fluctuate so it’s difficult to do trials.

We know very little about the way the female body works, how many women put up with chronic symptoms with their periods or hormones and have been dismissed by a medical professional as it just being one of those things.
I’m always stunned how little women know about how pregnancy affects their body or what actually happens during labour until they actually get pregnant (and even then lots still don’t know) because even in 2018 we don’t talk about female bodies and their functions, it’s still seen as shameful.

I also think it's highly ironic that this article has come from Vice

Absolutely - a magazine that from 1994 to 2008 was part owned by the founder of the 'Proud Boys', and was the subject of a recent NY Times expose on it's sexist culture.

If you want to understand the kind of culture that would encourage men to abuse self ID legislation, it wouldn't be a bad idea to start with some of the people involved in Vice.

StepAway because woman is biological and not a feeling.

Anorexics feel fat. It does not make them fat, nor does it make everyone who feels fat, anorexic.

The concept is not that hard to grasp.

Question of fact? Earlier , someone posted that the correct term for m to f was " transwoman". Not at all an undisputed fact, among those personally concerned or among the psychiatrists and other professionals in the field.

This is because "transwoman/ transman" is a very broad term which refers to someone who falls somewhere on a very long line of differences; at one end to the other it goes something like ; occasionally crossdresses, /identifies with / dresses as/ lives as ( sic) / has legally transitioned/ has had hormones and/ or surgery.

In other words, the whole caboodle. Most of whom often have very little contact with or understanding of each other.

The reason that some of us, and our clinicians, use the term TS woman ( or TS man) is because we fall into the last category. We have made that commitment, to the binary position, and have had the help of medical assessment and surgery.

TS women and men usually don't like " transwoman" or " transman", and most of us don't use it.

Female medicine IS considerably behind male medicine though.
I don't entirely agree with that.

I think male cancer treatment is far behind treatment of female cancer in some ways.

I also think that the risks of incontinence or impotence that are associated with prostatectomy are shocking and largely not talked about and wouldn't be acceptable if it were done to women, but that's another story.

It is by no means clear cut.

My only concern is that so few people would end up using the trans facilities that it would open up the very real threat that trans women would be end up being sexually assaulted.

I think loads of people would use them, people with young kids, mixed sex groups of people who’ve come in together, women who can’t be arsed with the queue in the women’s.

Calvinsmam

Then why aren't women taking the time to educate themselves about their own bodies and how they work, about pregnancy and choices available to them?

Why do you see women as passive creatures waiting for others to educate them about our own bodies?

Women are perfectly capable of speaking out, of demanding better healthcare so why aren't we?

And maybe they don't "feel like a woman" but look at their body and don't identify with it, to them it's wrong. Who knows what that "feels" like?

I believe what you're describing is gender dysphoria. I have already said I have sympathy for those who suffer from this condition. It is very similar to a condition in which sufferers think that a body part is wrong or doesn't belong to them and demand amputation. But nobody knows what it is like to be the opposite sex. It's something that has to be experienced first hand.