To be shocked that Mn has been branded a “hotbed of transphobia”

[Badmoonsarising]

BY Vice msgazine no less!

broadly.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/a3mn9k/mumsnet-uk-mom-forum-terf-transphobia-feminism

But surely you can see the sexism inherent in someone's statement that they 'know' they're a woman because they love shopping for clothes and having their hair and nails done?
Is it sexist though? There might well be natal women who feel the same and would describe themselves as being a woman because that is what they like doing.

It's very difficult to try and describe why you are you. I don't think that I could justify why I am who I am. If I felt that my body was "wrong" (which I do actually. Not the sex of my body but it's appearance) then how do I explain that feeling to others? It's likely that it's an intangible feeling that you can't find the words to describe, but people are trying to explain it in terms that others can relate to.

I don't understand it but it's obviously incredibly complex and difficult to label in a way that is acceptable to some of you.

Thin / fat doesn’t work and you know it. Thin people don’t have special changing rooms that fat people can’t come into. Fat people don’t commit 98pc of all sexual crimes. Fat people are not telling thin people that they too are actually thin and if thin people don’t see it then they are phobic.

It is irrelevant to me if you are thin or fat. It’s not irrelevant to me if you are male.

Women are not wary if transwomen because they are trans, they are wary of transwomen because they are male.

If this is true then why all the derogatory comments about how transwomen look, or about neo vaginas for example?

Everyone is aware what ‘transwoman’ means, calling them a ‘man’ instead of a transwoman is spite. You wouldn’t behave like that elsewhere, deliberately invalidate someone to feel superior, but on MN it’s acceptable because everyone else is doing it.

Because of the massive delusion that goes into supporting this ideology. Men almost never are able to pass as women but women are being told to deny the evidence of their own eyes.

As for the neovagina business - it’s tragic that anyone needs telling that it isn’t and never can be a vagina.

Certainly, people have said things such as " MN is transphobic", but people say things like " Tunbridge Wells is all right wing Tories or Ukip". It is never an accurate picture, that sort of thing.

Some TS or other people have posted things on MN and got some pretty uncompromising and not very welcoming responses, tiz true. Sometimes those responses seemed to have less to do with what the poster was saying, or standing for, and more to do with the poster's underlying attitudes towards " people like them". Or " people like them " being on mumsnet, even.

But it can never be the full picture of a thing as big as MN , and there have always been posts that take a less hostile attitude. There are also occasional pms which say encouraging things.

As for numbers on MN who fall into various categories of opinion about transgender people or the smaller subdivision, transsexual people , who knows?

Is it sexist though? There might well be natal women who feel the same and would describe themselves as being a woman because that is what they like doing.

Seriously? You're saying that an actual woman might say she's a woman because she likes those things? Am I a man because I hate them? I'm sure lots of women do like those things, but that's not what makes them women.

This sexist shit is what feminists have been fighting against since forever.

the TRA viewpoint re vaginas is that the neo vagina is actually superior to an actual one

And my view on that is " so what?" Lots of people have opinions that certain characteristics are better than others - better to be thin than fat, better to be blonde, better to be a certain height, better to have big boobs... So what? Why not just be confident in yourself?

Someone saying that a neo vagina is better has no bearing on my vagina does it?

Yes I will invalidate men who say they are women. They are not. It’s not spite - it’s truth. Say you are a man who likes to dress like this and you prefer to think of yourself as a woman, whatever that means, and I’ll back you all the way. Tell me you actually are a woman and there I’ll object. Heretical.

I don’t believe in Jesus either.

And as I gave examples of above, we all tell "lies" everyday, or rather don't make a special effort to speak the biological reality about people.

Do you also refuse to tell "lies" about other physical characteristics? Do you comment on disabilities or body size or acne or body odour? These are all "truths" after all.

Calling someone fat to their face is rude.

Calling someone on here overweight when they have stated their weight, or addressing obesity as a society wide issue - is not rude.

Basically no I won’t lie for you.

You may be very fat, I will not address you as ‘fat woman’ regularly because I ‘refuse to tell lies’

But what if we were asked to call a fat woman thin, and (this metaphor is getting silly) it were codified that we do so?

They have a point.

Everyone is aware what ‘transwoman’ means, calling them a ‘man’ instead of a transwoman is spite

No they don't.

Many people think that transwoman means a woman who identifies as a man. Not a man that identifies as a woman. It is not spiteful, it is factual clarification.

There might well be natal women who feel the same and would describe themselves as being a woman because that is what they like doing.

I would be concerned that these women would find it difficult to accept men who also like getting their hair and nails done and that there is something wrong with a woman who doesn't like getting their hair and nails done. Women can be sexist too.

But wouldn't it be better to have a society where everyone can get their nails done without feeling that they are 'wrong'?

Thin / fat doesn’t work and you know it. Thin people don’t have special changing rooms that fat people can’t come into.

Yeah it does work. If your issue is changing rooms why not say "I don't think that trans women should be able to use women's changing rooms"? No need to for rude comments on someone's physical appearance is there? Which is where the fat analogy does come in.

Well, there are some threads which are a hotbed of transphobia, there are also threads supportive of trans people, there are posters who are transphobes and brings trans into everything and there are countless posters and threads who have nothing whatsoever to do with trans one way or another.

But everyone likes to sneer at silly little mums being 'political' rather than sticking to talking about nappies and childcare.

No need to for rude comments on someone's physical appearance is there?

And yet, there are threads on here ripping celebrities apart for their physical appearance.

What was she wearing?

But that is fine right?

I think that the concept of psychologically female might be clumsy but it's valid. Surely that's the essence of being trans? You look at your body and think 'this isn't me. I'm not this sex. I feel like a woman/man but my biology says I'm not.' It must be an utterly terrifying place to be. Trans women aren't safe in male spaces but they aren't welcome in female spaces either. So what do we do? Look for solutions? Or shout abuse at them and tell them to f*ck off? Whether we like it or not transwomen and transmen exist and we have to find a way of co-existing that doesn't compromise the needs and rights of either. TRAs have thoroughly skewed this by saying 'we are women as much as you are women and we'll have access to everything you do, thank you very much, even if we decide to retain a penis.' That helps no-one, least of all transwomen who are just trying to live their lives and are struggling to shout louder than the TRAs. Self ID is a horrendous idea because it is so open to abuse and many transwomen have agreed with that. IMO the easiest way to solve this is to create as many 'sex-free' I.e. shared spaces as possible. Our local pool have done this. Shares areas with cubicles for showering and changing. Simple. Not all solutions will be that simple but they need to be debated or we're going to get absolutely nowhere.

Men almost never are able to pass as women

As for the neovagina business - it’s tragic that anyone needs telling that it isn’t and never can be a vagina.

But so what? Why does it matter to you whether a trans woman "passes"? Or has a neo vagina that you don't consider as good as the real thing? So what?

Someone saying that a neo vagina is better has no bearing on my vagina does it?

Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigggggghhhhhh

Women have had to deal with being told their bits are disgusting for pretty much forever. That our vaginas are shameful or dirty. A lots of women have had to deal with long standing medical issues with their reproductive organs because there’s just not enough understanding or research done into exactly how they work, because it’s only women, who cares? (Think of the pelvic mesh scandal that happened extremely recently).

The female body positivity movement was only just starting to get legs when suddenly we were being policed for saying women’s reproductive organs had anything to do with feminism because ‘women can have penises’. What did that do? It once again silenced many young women (older women not so much see this forum) into not talking about their bodies.

The idea that a man made neo vagina is better than a real vagina is pretty much misogyny encapsulated. All that sexing, non of that icky female stuff.

Many people think that transwoman means a woman who identifies as a man. Not a man that identifies as a woman. It is not spiteful, it is factual clarification.
And that would be giving the correct definition of a word.

Calling a trans woman a man isn't the same as correcting someone who is mistaken in thinking a FtM is a trans woman.

Makes are born male, females are born female and some unfortunates are both. Here ends my biology lesson for my kids.... but the need to bang that out in thread after thread over on the feminism section makes you mumnetters look a little militant 😄

Just about everyone on this thread could be labelled as transphobic. All it took for Jenni Murray & Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie to be ripped apart was the suggestion that transwomen had had different experiences from women.

IMO the easiest way to solve this is to create as many 'sex-free' I.e. shared spaces as possible. Our local pool have done this

That is not 'sex free' - that is unisex. I'll repeat the link from earlier that shows these places are dangerous for women and girls.

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html