To be shocked that Mn has been branded a “hotbed of transphobia”

[Badmoonsarising]

BY Vice msgazine no less!

broadly.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/a3mn9k/mumsnet-uk-mom-forum-terf-transphobia-feminism

People of colour’ is a very American term, though language is obviously evolving all the time the term ‘black people’ is still commonly used in britain and not as a slur but just as the term

Agree. My Aussie pupils flinch if I describe a black person as black, even though every black British person I know/have taught says they are black. The US terminology is so pervasive, and the direct experience of being with black people so limited for the most part in Australia, that I've had black British people described as Afro-American by my pupils, rather than than say the b-word.

I read it as “The black women and men...”. Was that not what you meant?

No. I meant it as I posted it. I was addressing a poster who cited race, gender and disability and used black as a shorthand for all races not generally considered white.

Possibly I should have said black/Asian, etc. but then that pisses off Indian sub-continent Asians who might not like being lumped with Asians, AKA south east Asia Asians. It's certainly complicated.

Discussing transgenderism and its ramifications is considered transphobic nowadays. Personally, from all I've read, I don't think affirmation and denying it is a mental problem is helping. The levels of rage are growing as are the demands.

I take people as I find them, but I cannot pretend that biology doesn't exist and I don't think it is healthy for anyone to need people to deny reality for them to feel well in themselves.

Also the amount that transactivists are demanding, if granted, will severely limit the freedom of women who for religious reasons or because of trauma will not be able to use mixed changing rooms.

Also the amount that transactivists are demanding, if granted, will severely limit the freedom of women who for religious reasons or because of trauma will not be able to use mixed changing rooms

Or just because they are women.

If you can’t see what’s wrong with calling people of colour ‘the black’ and referring to being of a different race as a ‘condition’, I can’t help you.

'BAME': Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44859517
www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/latestnews/2018/bame-career-progression-and-culture-report
www.bbc.co.uk/academy/en/collections/expert-voices

Take out 'black' and you have:

The women and men, elders and the disabled don't opt into their condition - the 'condition' of being old, the 'condition' of being female or male, the 'condition' of being disabled.

You might think the language is clumsy, but the word 'condition' is clearly being used to describe the state of being in a particular group.

For the people wondering why transsexuals aren't calling out the transactivism that gc women are so concerned with, they have (again) written to the press.

We seek to find common cause with women against male violence and we condemn the threats, harassment and intimidation of women who argue that sex-based protections are vital in a society still punctuated by sexism. Women are oppressed because of their sex, not some metaphysical gender identity. We are concerned that women are being dehumanised as “TERFs” (trans-exclusionary radical feminists) in order for abusive males to unleash misogynistic rhetoric and violent abuse with impunity.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3445694-Letter-in-the-Times-Plea-To-The-Trans-Lobby-from-group-of-transsexuals

Historically, few people had a problem with the handful of transsexuals one might encounter in the ladies loos. Not because the agreed with a sexist ideology, but because it was a) rare and b) confined to loos. Transwomen weren't willy nilly using changing rooms, in female sport, getting transferred to female prisons, etc.

Nor was gender politics being taught in schools. And female compliance demanded using threats.

This has all changed. Blame a ridiculous ideology which promotes misogyny and brooks no dissent.

Thinking about men with gender dysphoria and how to accommodate them, is a dot in the distance. It's gone way beyond that.

That no matter how hard they cling to their prejudices, the world is changing and their views are being consigned to the past.

Which views would those be?

I just need to have words to describe the state of being biologically female, because nothing about the state of being female; or the reasons that led to women being unable to work, receive an education or take part in government; has changed.

No woman has ever escaped restrictive laws on the basis of their identity.

Although I don't think echt's remark was offensive, I agree that discrimination on the basis of race is different to discrimination for other reasons because there is no more difference between people who have different skin colour than people who have different hair colour.

However, as a woman I do have a body of the kind that bears children, and I can be physically dominated by men, and that does make a difference.

Thinking about men with gender dysphoria and how to accommodate them, is a dot in the distance. It's gone way beyond that.

Yes. The 2004 laws were designed to make life easier for people who have gender dysphoria, not to deny the existence of biological sex.

The issue now is people who claim that biological sex doesn't exist and that everyone should be defined by gender.

An equivalent would be arguing that slavery didn't exist but that everyone should be able to identify as African American based on whatever stereotype they wish.

He's also either a straight man or bisexual or he wouldn't have fathered a child.

I know the thread's moved on quite a bit, Jezebel, but if you mean by this that no transwoman would father children, that's factually incorrect.

Caitlin Jenner, Debbie Hayton, Kellie Mahoney and plenty more transitioned after having kids.

You could say anyone ‘opted in’ a Muslim could decide to be a Muslim, does that mean it’s ok to criticise their choices? If you’re not homosexual yourself, how can you be completely sure it’s not a choice?

People used to say that gay people were pedophiles and shouldn’t be let around children. How disgusting would you find that comment now? In 2018? Because I find it abhorrent. You are not the suffragettes take 2, you are scared of what you don’t understand and creating an enemy because you can’t see or feel gender dysphoria yourself.
I agree self ID has the potential to be dangerous, that needs to be discussed. This is no longer about that on MN though, I’ve asked the question and most people wouldn’t be happy with a transsexual with full surgery using their spaces either because ‘what is a woman’.

I’ve asked the question and most people wouldn’t be happy with a transsexual with full surgery using their spaces either because ‘what is a woman’.

Because earley it's gone way behind that.

There are gc feminists who could probably agree with it in principle but have had to harden their stance because, in practice, it's impossible.

Getting hung up on them saying no is pointless, if you can't provide a reliable mechanism to use, if they said yes.

I would have vehemently disagreed with the article, OP, until a trans-woman posted in AIBU a few weeks ago asking for respectful debate on the issues and was rounded on. I've never seen anything like it. She wasn't a TRA but was personally attacked as though she was one. Horrible.

AIBU isn't known for it's kid gloves. (Although two transwomen have posted on this thread too and it's been fine.)

Do you have a link to that thread step?

I'm a lesbian. I lived through Section 28.

Back then, Stonewall had posters saying Some People Are Lesbian, Get Over It. Now? I was disgusted by Pride & Stonewall's condemnation of the Lesbians Are Female Homosexuals banner.

I came out into a welcoming & supportive lesbian community. But recently at feminist events I've met young lesbians who have been nearly in tears because of the pressure from within their communities to be 'queer' and accept partners with penises. Linda Riley of Diva and Ruth Hunt of Stonewall both deny this is happening.

Males have always wanted sex with lesbians. It used to be viewed as corrective rape or conversion therapy. Now it's twisted so that lesbians can be guilted for not accepting them. There are even articles in VICE etc on how lesbians should be accommodating transwomen.

Section 28 didn't allow homosexuality to be 'promoted' in schools. Now young girls who might well have grown up lesbian are being put on drugs that will lead to their sterilisation, wearing binders that crush their breasts, break their ribs & make it hard for them to breathe, having mastectomies.

Progress is relative.

You could say anyone ‘opted in’ a Muslim could decide to be a Muslim, does that mean it’s ok to criticise their choices?

That is because being a muslim is a question of faith, not physical state.

You are not the suffragettes take 2, you are scared of what you don’t understand and creating an enemy because you can’t see or feel gender dysphoria yourself.

No, I just want to be able to define women.

I’ve asked the question and most people wouldn’t be happy with a transsexual with full surgery using their spaces either because ‘what is a woman’.

In most situations they wouldn't have any choice because in day to day life there is little sex segregation and usually the extent of sex segregation is up to the service provider. People might not like me bringing my 6 year old child into the opposite changing rooms at swimming, but there is little that they can do about it.

Under the current law there are only a very few situations where somebody with a GRC wouldn't be treated as having their acquired legal sex.

However, as you say, Self ID could lead to the situation being abused.

Earlywalker you seem to be doing what you accuse MNers of doing - seeking out a position you disagree with on the internet.

I wouldn't be concerned if the people asserting that sex doesn't exist were only randoms on the internet, but unfortunately they aren't.

We're past the days when women could just politely ignore the small number of transsexuals using our toilets.

Stonewall's trans umbrella blew that apart. There's no way to distinguish any more in practical terms because if a Debbie Hayton or Kristina Harrison is accepted, then it's impossible to exclude any bloke who says 'Oi, I'm a woman too.' And if you query them in any way you're transphobic.

He's also either a straight man or bisexual or he wouldn't have fathered a child.

Wait a minute, I hadn’t seen this before.

Gay men can be and are fathers.

The thread I think they’re referring to was by someone called wrexhamtrans. GC posters united to tell us to ‘listen to her’ because she was a voice of reason. Things took a bad turn because she accepted an invite by one of her friends to a woman’s event and refused to admit she was ‘just a man’

I’m not seeking out people I disagree with, this is in AIBU, claiming MN is not a ‘hotbed of transphobia’ if anything, it is funny if any of you actually believe it isn’t.

and refused to admit she was ‘just a man’

Is that a paraphrase or a direct quote?

Datun I think Step is referring to that thread by Wrexhamtrans. We both commented on that rather transparent attempt to get women to stfu and accept what transwomen want. (I've changed my name to a more festive one but usually post as PerverseConverse).

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3426039-AIBU-to-open-a-transgender-discussion-thread-for-respectful-debate
Here you go. It wasn't what was said so much as how people were talking to the OP. I tried to send her a PM to say how sorry I was she had got such abuse and it was closed to PMs, presumably because MNetters had taken to privately attacking her too.

Transphobia can mean almost anything these days.

What the article is basically saying is that women are 'transphobic' for standing up for their rights against the men that want to obliterate them.

Which is a good thing. It brings new people who also want to talk about these rights.

There is no such thing as bad publicity.

@TwistedChristmas - I really don't think the OP was saying that we had to stfu and accept what transwomen want. I really don't. I think she was hoping that the collective wisdom of MN could find a way forward.

She was not, she was very respectful and was completely jumped on. Here’s one post from that thread C+P, It’s the attitude and disrespect given to someone who had been defending GC people on the previous thread. The attitude towards her made it so obvious the disregard some posters have for trans people in general.

Psychologically society identifies me as female even though physiologically it identifies me as male

No it doesn't.

There's no such thing as pyschologically female FFS.

What a ridiculous and fucking insulting thing to say in a thread full of women. Hello ladies, I'm psychologically female, just like you!

Try, for a second, jettisoning the shitty presumptions you hold about us. We are humans of the reproductive class: female.
Whatever else you believe to be our innate characteristics is bound to be wrong.

You don't think we have men telling us what they imagine we are from morning to night every day of our lives?

Female is not a state of mind and only a sexist fuckwit would believe that being born with ovaries gives us a matching frilly personality.

Could you just TRY to see us as human beings of the opposite biological class from you and then respect us accordingly?

MN is not a ‘hotbed of transphobia’ if anything, it is funny if any of you actually believe it isn’t.

Depends how you define transphobia. If recognising the existence of sex is transphobic, it's very difficult not to be transphobic.

I acknowledge that some people don't like sharing space with children. I don't think that makes them child phobic, I just think that sometimes they have reasons not to share space with children.

I acknowledge that there are reasons that I should be excluded from services for disabled people.

I acknowledge that I am not eligible for any BAME programmes.

I also think that 'trans' needs to be defined clearly.

You can't define any group without also excluding the people who are outside the group. This seems to be such a basic point, yet nobody is allowed to address it.