Assistant Head told class their behavior resulted in supply teacher being fired

[Rockingaround]

Ok - the class had a supply last Wednesday . Whilst there, a few pupils (grade 4) wrecked the craft area ... made slime, cut up ping pong balls, wasted resources and stole craft items.
Today the Assistant Head comes to speak to the class about their behavior. She says how unacceptable their behavior is. How in future if they see any pupils behaving inappropriately they must tell a teacher. A little boy in the class says “but the teacher let us do it”, she replies “yes but he wasn’t a real teacher and he has been fired because of your behavior.
My little girl comes home crying saying what if the teacher has kids, what if he can’t afford to live, it’s just before Christmas etc. she also said “it just as much my fault as I should’ve told another teacher what they were doing”.... so I call the school, speak to the assistant head who talks about how appallling the children have behaved for 5 minuets; when there’s a pause I say “it’s not their behavior I’m concerned with, did you actually say that their actions caused the guy to get fired?” ... “well I told them he wasn’t coming back”. I said “my little girl told me that you said he was fired because of their behavior”. She said “well yes, because children need to understand there’s consequences to their actions”. I said “well that’s just not acceptable, they’re too little to have that responsibility, plus the supply teachers confidentiality - it’s just not fair, I’m coming into school in the morning to speak to the Head”

AM I GOING INSANE!!! Am I being unreasonable, this is not okay right????

Even looking at the thread I can see the inaccuracies that come from talking over something (last few posters saying it’s the head, not the Assistant Head who told off the children). How much more do stories change between home and school. OP wasn’t there, so doesn’t know what was said.

In your report of the phone call the AHT says she didn’t say ‘sacked’ just ‘not coming back ‘. The rest may be just as different to what your daughter told you. Not lies on either side, just different because we remember things with emotion more than words.

It’s important you try and find out what actually happened and don’t go in all guns blazing to staff who may actually be on your side.

Outrageous
The children should not be made to feel responsible for the supply's employment status.
Whoever said that to them shouldn't be working with children.

Maybe you need to have a word with the all the kids who were being naughty about their behaviour!! Parents need to take responsibility too!

Time not ideal wording on part of AH but do you know the retention rates for teachers? Good luck replacing senior staff when you sack them for saying something in the wrong way.

YABU

I wouldn't be complaining, i hope it has made the kids feel bad, may be they’ll think twice about their bad behaviour ( but they probably won’t).

^I agree

If the same group behaved like that in your home, you’d say nothing right? Your daughter behaved elsewhere like that, it’s acceptable is it?

If your daughter wasn’t involved in the poor behaviour, you can reassure her she shouldn’t feel guilty.

Kids need to realise teachers aren’t robots conditioned to correcting piss poor behaviour and frankly, you didn’t hear how it was worded. Just the 9 year old grapevine.

Sorry OP, you’re being ridiculous.

Do they really feel that attached to the supply teacher who came to teach for a day or two to feel bad that they won't be back? By 8/9 years old, they know what supply teachers are, aren't they? That they are substitute, and they do teach elsewhere if they are not teaching at your school?

Ridiculous! That supply teacher got fired because he was not able to control the class not because the children behaved like that .that headteacher should be ashamed of playing his sort of tactics with little kids .

Can't imagine much worse than going into a strange room containing 30 people you have never met and then finding that at least six of them have no respect whatsoever.

Iggi999
It's a much more empowering view of students I find (it certainly changed my approach to teaching when i heard it).
It doesn't go down well parents who like to teacher bash/excuse or minimise poor behaviour but students actually respond really well to it.

I think about it from a student point of view, which teacher has the better view of you:

Teacher 1: Yes you misbehaved, but it wasn't really proper misbehaviour so I'll let it slide. Yes that might be because was because I sat you near Timmy on a full moon and yes it was windy and yes you didn't do that much work but that's my fault for expecting too much of you. Ok you aren't working hard, but I don't mind because I'm grateful that you've just attempted something (however half arsed).
I'm also not going to follow up the disruption because I can't really be dealing with you parent and it's not big enough to warrant having my ear bitten off.

Or

Teacher 2: You are a student I care about and respect. You have so much potential but unfortunately you've made some poor choices. I know you're more than capable of making good choices. There is a sanction for your poor choice and then there is a line drawn under it. I dont like having negative conversations with you or your parents/carers but I'm willing to be the bad cop because I care about you doing well and sometimes teachers have to take on that role. We start fresh after and I look forward to being able to praise you for making positive choices.

Teacher 1 might be preferred by some (and certainly some on MN) but teacher 2 is the one who is respected and generally liked by students. Teacher 2 might be bad cop, but they send the message of empowerment and agency. The most respected teachers (not the favourite ones day to day) are the teachers who are generally strict, fair and warm.

I was a supply teacher for 18 months. I'd have been horrified to learn I'd been referred to as "not a proper teacher". I still had the same degree and same PGCE (or equivalent) as the permanent teachers there.

Some schools just took such a dim attitude to supply, you were ignored, and they didn't care about you, others were great. I'm sure I had some schools which asked not to have me back, similarly I was the preferred teacher for my subject / general cover at quite a few schools.

What is the behaviour like in general with the class? It seems unusual that a class would behave like that if they are generally okay. I remember a day in one school where I had awful behaviour from classes all day - but for this school it was the norm (being merged, becoming an academy, no-one knew what as going on), and I got told I'd done a good job, and the deputy came and found me and apologised for something I'd had to deal with. Whereas another school the behaviour I had to deal with there it'd look like I'd done a really bad job. Another school knew I'd struggle with one class as they'd had supply teachers for that lesson for months, so made sure SLT popped their heads in regularly, not to check up on me but to make sure the pupils were behaving for me and to reiterate that they expected good behaviour from them no matter who was at the front of the room.

All schools have a behaviour policy which a supply teacher is given (or should be given - it didn't always happen) at the start of the day, if they'd not followed this fair enough, but maybe they weren't given it, or maybe they'd called for help and help didn't arrive? (Again, not uncommon)

Sorry, a bit rambling, it's now nearly 7 years since I left the classroom.

YANBU it's outrageous to make kids like your daughter so unhappy when it's a confidential matter anyway - no kid that age should have to feel responsible for someone losing their job, however obnoxiously they've behaved. I'd be complaining to the head as well.

I have to agree with Maisypops and Meinmytree.

Parents showing teachers no respect and telling them how to teach breeds nothing but disrespect amongst kids, especially at that age.

I’ve worked in schools and seen the supply teachers turn up last minute to avoid your kids sitting in a class of 60 for the day because you terrorised the last poor sod into stress leave with your valuable opinions and stupid complaints like this one.

Show a bit of respect for the people that are teaching your children and maybe schools will improve quicker.

Besides, you don’t want people like me judging you for being an over-sensitive nightmare. I see more than you think and I know your kids in a way you don’t.

Ever thought about how they behave when they’re not with you? Doesn’t sound like it.

Had the AH singled anyone out, or shamed them individually or wrongly accused them then fair enough. But get a grip. It only gets worse in secondary OP. No one puts up with you moaning about a bollocking over vandalism there.

Go easy on that poor Head tomorrow - you have no idea what shit they have to deal with from stretching budgets to reporting something hideous to social services. Do you really feel this is important in comparison?

Actually I think the points in your last post are valid OP. Your DC being in a class that is so out of control, they cost the school a supply teacher, is an important cause for concern. I'd also worry that the AHT's attitude will encourage bad behaviour rather than stop it. They've given the DCs the impression that the class can influence staffing decisions.

Bennyandthejetsssss
I think the AHT was wrong to mention the supply teacher's job. It was unprofessional.

I just take issue with adults claiming ks2 students have no agency and that teachers should 'control' the students vs students make positive choices or negative choices.

As far as I'm concerned anyone who is happy for children to be praised for working hard, being cooperative etc has to also accept children can choose to misbehave and there are consequences. The agency when positive but blame someone or something else for negative behaviour is a bizarre and limiting view of children in my opinion.

has it ever occured to you that the poor behaviour is the parents fault and the parent should be told off not the kids or the supply teacher. Bring in the fine for parents.

I also agree in positive affirmation and praise.

You must’ve seen a thousand times kids and the Chinese Whispers effect and often it’s misinterpreted taken home in a new form and knee-jerk parents can dent the confidence of even the hardest of experienced teachers.

Our schools are stretched, buildings falling to pieces, in London there’s not always good outside space. They are not perfect places and teachers have one of the hardest jobs. Head teachers more so.

When there’s something serious to complain about then fair enough. These kids behaved badly and took the opportunity to take the piss with a supply. You can’t really dress it up and if you weren’t in the classroom at the time, you don’t know how AH worded it.

If OPs daughter wasn’t involved then OP can explain why the teacher said it to everyone. Had she singled out the culprits, again based on hearsay, that wouldn’t have been right either.

Where were the familiar support staff that know the kids? Why didn’t they step up?

I just have seen this nonsense too many times and it withers teachers down. I’ve seen the hurt because some parent had an irrational pop via the head.

Unless the AH nurtures a generally negative culture, I’d be letting it go but paying attention for further instances. 2 or 3 of this and you may have a point.

Surely OP has now had meeting with headteacher?

Those parents to teachers here what does it mean to be labelled those parents, take it you mean the ones who don't think the teaching staff all shut gold and do nothing wrong. Arrogant much !!!!

Telling the class they caused the teacher to be fired just isn't on. The behaviour of the class was atrocious. Think I'd want to know if this was normal and if so why did the Head not support the teacher in some way. Supply teacher probably didn't know the class and if the kids decided to cause mayhem definitely would need assistance to sort them out.

This sounds like my DTs class! They have had years of poor management, teachers leaving on maternity, sickness etc and supply teachers for most of each year since year 1 - apart from one where they just had a rubbish teacher. I used to help with spellings and could hear the appalling behaviour of some of the boys (it was always boys) going un-managed. I wish I had moved my children then - they are now Year 6 - I always thought the next year would get better!
If you have 'that class' then escape as quickly as you can! My DS is one of the culprits as he has ASD and ADHD, as do several of his classmates, but no 1:1 TAs any more - so I am not randomly blaming boys, it's just that this is the problem we have. Several SEN kids with statements, several without, several naughty ones, and a couple of bright but bored as not challenged ones - recipe for disaster if not managed properly. Oh and 34 children and mixed year groups! They had a supply teacher last year who was so stressed he manhandled one of the SEN children and was 'let go' - Of course he should have known better but the school should have supported him far better too. It must be a minefield for teachers!

Sorry OP - I should have said I agree that the AH should not have said what they did - that is totally inappropriate. But I echo PPs who said move your child, I wish I had done years ago..... Good luck

margesimpson40
Average supportive parents - back the school, are supportive, if they have issues or concerns then they contact school, ask to speak to the most appropriate person, calmly and sensibly discuss the situation. They are open to the fact that either through deliberate misleading or just miscommunication their child might not have the full picture. They work with school and if the situation warrants it are assertive and raise complaints by following procedure.

Those parents- There's different ways to fall into this group.
Decide they have the full and complete picture straight away, jump straight to being fuming about x y z, decide they want to complain, go as high up as they can because they think it proves they mean business.
Will often say 'But my child wouldn't lie' despite CCTV footage proving their child has just lied to them, will refuse to back the school if they don't happen to like a rule. Will encourage defiance and undermine staff. Will minimise their own child's behaviour and refuse to accept anything could ever be their child's responsibility. Tends to blame teachers for anything and everything and on MN is prone to telling people to call the head/governors/LA/Ofsted for any query someone might have.
Those parents also tend to believe that anyone who thinks their approach is ridiculous and ineffective are 'teacher worshipers/ think teachers are gods/ think teachers should never be questioned / love blind obedience etc'

Usually on a MN you get this on a thread about lesson disruption:
Normal parent - have you considered you might not have the full picture? Why don't you call the school, speak to head of year/class teacher and take it from there. Hopefully it'll resolve but that's probably better than trying to demand a meeting with the head at 9am without the facts.
That parent- oh I see the teacher worshipers are out in force today. Nobody should ever believe a child, like ever. No wonder we've had so many historical abuse cases. Turn up at school and tell them you want to see the head or you're calling ofsted about safeguarding.

Behaviour of kids should be the issue here for parents - mob rule!
School did right thing to get rid of teacher who can’t manage - would you want him back a second day?
Parents need to reinforce need for children to show respect. Imagine how some of these will be behaving at playtimes, in sports, in future workplaces without some social awareness of how others feel as a result of their behaviour?
Do your job parents and be grateful if your child shows empathy

Maisypops-that is so true!!

holiday After all, schools can and should be challenged when they get things wrong and queries should be raised when needed. There are ways to do it. One way is reasonable, sensible and productive, the other is frothy, ridiculous and counterproductive.