Assistant Head told class their behavior resulted in supply teacher being fired

[Rockingaround]

Ok - the class had a supply last Wednesday . Whilst there, a few pupils (grade 4) wrecked the craft area ... made slime, cut up ping pong balls, wasted resources and stole craft items.
Today the Assistant Head comes to speak to the class about their behavior. She says how unacceptable their behavior is. How in future if they see any pupils behaving inappropriately they must tell a teacher. A little boy in the class says “but the teacher let us do it”, she replies “yes but he wasn’t a real teacher and he has been fired because of your behavior.
My little girl comes home crying saying what if the teacher has kids, what if he can’t afford to live, it’s just before Christmas etc. she also said “it just as much my fault as I should’ve told another teacher what they were doing”.... so I call the school, speak to the assistant head who talks about how appallling the children have behaved for 5 minuets; when there’s a pause I say “it’s not their behavior I’m concerned with, did you actually say that their actions caused the guy to get fired?” ... “well I told them he wasn’t coming back”. I said “my little girl told me that you said he was fired because of their behavior”. She said “well yes, because children need to understand there’s consequences to their actions”. I said “well that’s just not acceptable, they’re too little to have that responsibility, plus the supply teachers confidentiality - it’s just not fair, I’m coming into school in the morning to speak to the Head”

AM I GOING INSANE!!! Am I being unreasonable, this is not okay right????

Don't understand why people are saying the supply teacher can't be fired. Of course they can. The HT rings the agency and says "send us someone else tomorrow" and that's that. Supply teaching is not a secure form of employment.

I'm trying to imagine the situation. There is chaos in the craft corner. The supply teacher isn't coping. Two good children walk out of class, without permission, knock on the next door classroom, and say, very politely "Please Miss x, can you come, because our craft corner is being destroyed? " And Miss X says "Where is your teacher?" And the good children say, "Mr Y is there, but he is not coping"

I don't see this scenario ending with the supply teacher keeping his job.

When we were year 5, year 4 had a reputation for trouble. They needed a supply in, and so they gave us the supply and our teacher went to them.

We were decorating the classroom for Christmas and should have been a lovely lesson.

A group of our class decided that they couldn't be bothered and were awkward and obstructive, and a lot of the rest of the class joined in by encouraging laughter. When our teacher came back in, he said something to the supply who clearly complained about the behaviour.

The supply teacher went, and our teacher then laid into the class for disrespect etc. (he did exclude 3 pupils that the supply had said were fine, and I was one of them) and one of the boys asked if he could go and apologise to the supply teacher, to which we were told he'd already gone.

(he was back in the next day so the form barring us three were taken to apologise)

But the result was our form after that was always very careful to behave with supply teachers and they often left saying how lovely we were.

I think the blaming of the children who did behave is the issue, and you daughter subsequently being upset and having guilt for something an 8 year old child - who has followed rules - should have no business knowing about. I expect she did follow the rules. By not leaving the room to find someone to help - she followed the rules of not leaving without permission, not wandering around without anyone knowing where she was etc. It is too big a dilemma for that age to be told that " this is your teacher for the day etc" and then to have to weigh up whether that teacher is coping and then whether she should break other rules in order to do the right thing in this situation. Ridiculous. You would have children leaving classrooms left right and centre if they didn't like how the teacher was directing the class. The management should have been overseeing the ST and supporting him in the first instance. Sounds to me like this may have been the Ass.Head's role for that day and she is trying to pass the buck - onto 8 years olds! I appreciate that in a highly challenging school for example, you may not manage to pop in as often as you would want but you either take it on the chin for not managing to do it or you take out the few offenders and talk to them. I don't like this scatter gun approach of blame (or a blame culture) one bit. I think you are right - the behaviour policy in this instance is not your concern. Your child kept to the rules - so why was she lectured (with what I would presume to be untruths) to the point that she is coming home riddled with guilt over confidential information re the ST? I have no issue if the head had gathered the class, said she knew all about certain pupils behaviour that day and would be speaking to them at the end. Then went through what had happened and asked the pupils what they could have done differently perhaps to make the room a better place for learning that day (or the like) That way the kids are still getting a chance to look at appropriate changes etc should there be a ST again but it is looking at the "learning and teaching " not at blaming the kids

I can't believe anyone thinks that blaming an 8 year old child for someone losing their job is ever acceptable.

It's this kind of thing that results in schools undermining themselves.

WTF am I reading here? We all know the supply wasn't 'fired', because that's not the way it works. In the heat of the moment the deputy said something to try to elicit a guilty response from the kids who did this.
Now you AND HUSBAND are marching in to school to harangue the busy head about this.
Congrats OP, you are 'that parent'.

OK - let's clarify something in bold. I'm a supply teacher. I have exactly the same qualifications as the full time class teachers have - a degree, a PGCE, QTS, my 5 meter swimming certificate and any other bits of paper you want me to wave around in a vaguely impressive manner. There are cover supervisors who do not need to have QTS however 90% of the time they're supply teachers who've been cornered into working for the cheaper rate and fucked over basically

Now I've got that little rant out of the way - the Assistant Head's behaviour and response to the situation is exactly why the class behaved as they did for the supply. They've gone in and basically told the class "if you fuck around we'll blame the supply teacher for it and get shot of them and then next time you'll get a new one to play with." Then the comments about not a proper teacher as well - they've nicely set themselves up for that class to be a complete bloody nightmare for every single supply that ever has the misfortune to enter the doors (not that there'll be many these days - there's no fucking supply work available as budgets are so stretched).

I've been in situations like that where classes have been challenging - ones where it's been dealt with like the school in this case have have ended up being the ones where they've gone through the entire supply teacher supply available in the local area as there's never been any of them "who can control the class" - and the kids know they can push things as far as they want and have generally a fun day of things - because they're never going to see the teacher again and there'll be no comeback for them.

Then you have schools in much more challenging circumstances, often with some very very damaged kids who will push the boundaries massively - but when the school have backed the supply teacher and enforced consequences - they've ended up with a regular supply that knows the kids and that the kids will behave for.

I've been in both situations - it's the former school, in a very leafy middle-class suburb, that has massive issues getting any supplies to return after one booking... the latter type of school have ended up with really committed supplies who'll go back again and again and again with continuity for the kids - even though on paper those are the much more challenging personalities to be dealing with.

I enjoy supply - I like the variety, I like the reduced level of edu-bullshit-paperwork and current circumstances mean I need the flexibility of it (my daughter's waiting for surgery so there are various medical appointments I need to be able to get her to etc). The trade off from that is that you are constantly in the situation where kids test the boundaries of whoever the new face is in front of the classroom - but that's par for the course and you just expect to deal with that. It's made a million times harder when you have a class teacher who introduces you with "and I know that it's harder and you won't behave as well because this is Miss X and not your usual teacher and she won't know you or how to teach you as well as we do" (happened to me at a school near here).

made slime, cut up ping pong balls, wasted resources and stole craft items

Apart from the stealing, I am not sure why these things are so bad? Surely craft involves cutting things up to make things? I was in a school where making slime was an activity that the kids loved. Maybe what the school say as wasting, the supply saw as creative? Maybe this was a difference of expectations as to what one does in a craft area?

it is if they were supposed to be doing maths

I can't believe anyone thinks that blaming an 8 year old child for someone losing their job is ever acceptable
Holding students accountable for their behaviour is absolutely acceptable.

The head shouldn't have mentioned the supply teacher not coming back etc because it's unprofessional to share that with students. Not that it matters much because classes that have misbehaved and their teacher has left have (in my experience picking them up as their new teacher) all too quick to gloat about how they got their teacher sacked when they have no information.

If any of my classes misbehave when supply is in or don't work hard enough I follow it up when I get back, even if it means having 15 students back after school redoing the work. Behaving or misbehaving is a choice on the part of the student.

I really despise whole class telling offs/ punishments.

I agree with this in principle, but it's very hard to confine a telling off to a sizeable proportion of a class. If you dealt with them all individually you wouldn't teach anything. The only way I can think of to get around it is to acknowledge that there are a number of people behaving well. Once, however, the mother of a girl who was behaving well complained about my telling off even though I took this approach. You can't win.

Well,the teacher isn’t coming back to the school. Effectively the same as being fired.

Lack of control of a sub teacher in a class which I took to HT and made an almighty fuss about, resulted in an assurance from the HT that the sub concerned wouldn’t be asked back to the school.

I have no issue with that.

Young Children may not get the nuance between “not coming back” and “fired”

I think you should reconsider your meeting with the HT. Wouldn't you be able to express your views more succinctly in a letter. HTs are very busy. What do you hope to achieve through a meeting? Kids behaved badly. Maybe AHT shouldn't have said what she did. What do you want to happen next? Presumably no repeat? Ok HT can reassure you. TBH your tone is rather punitive towards the AHT.

I agree OP. It wasn’t acceptable to make that comment to the pupils.
Have a right go at them about their behaviour YES.
Making them totally responsible for someone loosing their job NO.

They are children, only children who can, in no way, be made responsible for something as big as someone loosing their job around Christmas time.
The worst thing is pupils like your dd will feel awful about it. But I bet a lot of them will not have a clue of what it might mean for the teacher. Basically it’s the ones who are the less likely to have caused the trouble who will feel awful!
And tbh, yes those children didn’t behave well but the teacher wasn’t good either. If she needed help, she should have asked herself for some help (the teachers in my dcs primary used to do that and call for each other when things were getting too out of hand). And actually I also expect a teacher to be able to handle a class too, even if you have some unruly children there.

Basically a handful of children behaving badly in class doesn’t give the AHT the right to make a whole class feel responsible for what are ADULT issues.

They've set the class up to the rule the roost.... The idiot head has given them way too much power.

Children should be made aware of the consequences of their actions
The supply teacher was obviously not able to cope and should have got help but I have no problem with children being told off and told that their behaviour has led to this consequence for an adult. Might make them behave a bit better next time

Maisy I agree with you about redoing the work etc..

And abiut facing consequences.

But the consequences for an 8yo is to stay behind to redo work, stay in at break time etc...

It’s NOT about been feeling guilty because they’ve put an ADULT in an awful situation, leaving them wo money at Christmas
It’s NOT abiut making them responsible for something that is an ADULT responsibility
It’s NOT about sharing information about another adult that should have stayed confidential (both in class and when the OP rung the school)
And it’s certainly NOT about making them responsible for the failings of an ADULT (let’s be honest, the children might have behaved awfully but the teacher wasn’t in the ball at all and failed in their role as a teacher too)

A supply teacher is not employed by the school, so he/ she was not " fired". The school is right not to employ that person again.

I can see no reason why the class should not be told that their behaviour ( as a class, not as individuals) was such that the supply teacher will not be re-employed again, AND that it had better not happen again.

( ex deputy head and head )

You AND your husband are both going? Bloody hell, I’d hate to see what you’d do if there was a real issue. Massively over the top.

I would simply have said to DD that it’s the teacher’s job to make sure the children behave, the teacher wasn’t very good at their job and that’s why the AH doesn’t want them to work there again. Explain that the teacher can still work in other schools and won’t be sleeping in the park at Christmas.

I’d then explain that it’s NOT the Children’s responsibility to ‘tell another teacher’ UNLESS someone is actually in danger. It’s the ST’s job and responsibility to manage the other children, not hers. All SHE has to do is behave herself (and not egg the others on, obviously).

If you think the school management is bad, you should look for a new school. You can’t police them.

Maisy not for the first time you have said something that makes me hope you don't teach in my child's school (unlikely, I think).

So, to reiterate - you think it is fine to tell 8 year olds that they are responsible for losing someone their job? Not 'students', by the way - young children, 8 year olds. Your decision to refer to these children as students is very telling, by elevating children to students you are minimising the inappropriateness of the AHT's behaviour.

It’s worrying how many ‘teachers/heads’ think it was fine to tell the children their behaviour resulted in the ST ‘being fired’. you’d swear those posters had never been near a classroom full of children...talk about setting future ST’s up for truly awful behaviour.

I was a good kid, in a class of good kids, at a good school. We STILL used to give ST’s the run around. Mostly along the lines of saying our teacher didn’t make us do xyz or they let us have free time after lunch or whatever...plus the ‘crap’ ones we’d pretty much just talk over and roll our eyes a lot. Unless they were nice, then we’d be chatting to them about their pets, kids etc 🤷🏻‍♀️🤣. Personally I think it’s just a part of learning about life...

Milkycuppa - How long did it take for you to realise you couldn't control the 17 year olds?
They were disruptive from the start. They knew I had no power. Refused to follow instructions or leave the room when asked. Some of them fully admitted they only attended so parents could continue to claim child benefit, they had no intention of gaining any A-levels. Parents were informed but there’s not much they can do with 17yo. One parent stopped buying his kid cigarettes and beer unless he behaved - that was really the only thing that worked.

Why would anyone carry on if it was that bad?
Money. I needed to pay my bills.

Seems as if it would have been better for everyone if you'd asked for support and, if the situation didn't improve, admitted defeat
I did ask for support. Was told we don’t have teachers to spare, just contain them until July and tick the box to say they attended so we get government funding for that student. Imo their behaviour was partly the reason their permanent teacher went off sick. I didn’t admit defeat because I needed the salary. I wouldn’t have quit the job but boy was I glad when the decision was taken out of my hands!

But the AHT didn’t say fired. They said “not coming back”. Which is a nuance a bunch of 8/9s most likely didn’t get.

Children should be made aware of the consequences of their actions
The supply teacher was obviously not able to cope and should have got help but I have no problem with children being told off and told that their behaviour has led to this consequence for an adult. Might make them behave a bit better next time

Yes, they should be made aware of the consequences of their actions. So any of them destroying the art supplies should suffer the consequences of that.

It is NOT a consequence of THEIR behaviour that the ST got ‘fired’. That’s a consequence of the ST not being able to handle a class of mildly naughty children. Their incompetence is not the children’s responsibility, nor should the children feel they have this ‘power’ over ST’s. That’s practically BEGGING them to try it out again next time.