Assistant Head told class their behavior resulted in supply teacher being fired

[Rockingaround]

Ok - the class had a supply last Wednesday . Whilst there, a few pupils (grade 4) wrecked the craft area ... made slime, cut up ping pong balls, wasted resources and stole craft items.
Today the Assistant Head comes to speak to the class about their behavior. She says how unacceptable their behavior is. How in future if they see any pupils behaving inappropriately they must tell a teacher. A little boy in the class says “but the teacher let us do it”, she replies “yes but he wasn’t a real teacher and he has been fired because of your behavior.
My little girl comes home crying saying what if the teacher has kids, what if he can’t afford to live, it’s just before Christmas etc. she also said “it just as much my fault as I should’ve told another teacher what they were doing”.... so I call the school, speak to the assistant head who talks about how appallling the children have behaved for 5 minuets; when there’s a pause I say “it’s not their behavior I’m concerned with, did you actually say that their actions caused the guy to get fired?” ... “well I told them he wasn’t coming back”. I said “my little girl told me that you said he was fired because of their behavior”. She said “well yes, because children need to understand there’s consequences to their actions”. I said “well that’s just not acceptable, they’re too little to have that responsibility, plus the supply teachers confidentiality - it’s just not fair, I’m coming into school in the morning to speak to the Head”

AM I GOING INSANE!!! Am I being unreasonable, this is not okay right????

So, to reiterate - you think it is fine to tell8 year oldsthat they are responsible for losing someone their job?
I take it you've not read (or chosen not to) the points where I've said repeatedly that the AHT shouldn't have discussed a staff's employment because it's unprofessional?

Like literally my last post 10 minutes before you replied: The head shouldn't have mentioned the supply teacher not coming back etc because it's unprofessional to share that with students

But don't let that stop the frothy 'I hope you never teach my child and you minimise the AHT's actions' response.

I said the AHT was unprofessional and that students are responsible for their own behaviour. Who'd have thought they were such radically awful statements.

Hexagonal EXACTLY!

and I know that it's harder and you won't behave as well because this is Miss X and not your usual teacher and she won't know you or how to teach you as well as we do" (happened to me at a school near here)

Holy fuck. I hope you took that to the Head.

Personally I wouldn't have a problem with this. I would, however, have a problem with the class behaviour. Children do need to realise that their actions have consequences and, sometimes, these consequences are serious.

You've made your point to the AHT. There is no need for you or your husband to now go over her head and meet with the Head. Definitely no need for you both to go

For me, this would be a “pick your battles” moment. It is not right to tell children that a supply not coming back is their fault. Of course it isn’t.
But

1. Teachers have a hard time of it. I don’t know where OP is, but in many places craft items are a pretty scarce resource, often funded by parental contribution or teachers bringing in stuff. The wanton waste of items, or stealing them is pretty awful behaviour.No wonder the deputy was cross. They are only human.

1. The dep head teacher was talking to the children about their behaviour and a child said “but the teacher let us!” So, her reply was not planned but probably an impatient and angry reply to a rather irritating excuse for damaging scarce resources. At that age, DCs should be aware of what is and what isn’t good behaviour, not seek to blame it on someone not stopping them.

1. OPs main concern seems to be that her child was upset. Well, simple enough to explain that the teacher should have controlled the children, and that understandably the head doesn’t want them back. However, as a supply, they will get other jobs at other schools so it’s no big deal. The fact is that because children behaved very badly (probably out of eyesight of teacher), children ARE in trouble and the teacher will not be back. This may upset the OPs child, but children do have upsetting experiences sometimes, and I don’t see it as a parent’s job to protect a D.C. from being upset in all circumstances. It’s a learning experience. Learning how to deal with upset, to learn from what has happened is important. The D.C. can see that there are real consequences to bad behaviour, and while those consequences may not be the class’s fault, nonetheless, that is the end effect.

1. I have told my DCs from an early age at school not be tell tales on other children, but ALWAYS to tell if someone is being mean/hurting someone, or property is being damaged. I think it’s entirely fair for a deputy to place SOME responsibility for behaviour on the entire class. If children saw the other kids damaging the resources and the supply teacher didn’t notice, then it teaches a sense of group responsibility to require them to notify the teacher. Our society is too full of people who stand by and do nothing when they see something wrong. Of course it is the teacher’s responsibility, but if it is obvious that they are not aware, then it is good for the children to have a proactive approach and sense of responsibility for school resources.

No way would I go in and speak to the head about this. Really, they have better ways to spend their time.

It's not "not a real teacher" comment that got me. So everytime they have a supply teacher, the kids will just laugh at them and say "no, we can do what we like because you're not a real teacher".

They want behaviour to remain the same, but tell the kids the supply teachers don't really count since they aren't really teachers. She's basically told the class it's all good, you don't need to do what they say.

@nellieellie

The supply teacher did notice, and OP said they allowed it to happen. Are you suggesting the children should have walked out of their classroom to find a other teacher? I'd think that is bad advice to give a child... "if you don't agree with your teachers decision then leave the class and get another one"... Really?

Ok it was a bit OTT by the assistant head but I’d be more shocked by the behaviour of the class. I’d support the school on this one.

It was a stupid thing to say to the kids on many levels. Obviously the culprits should be punished but a teacher being disciplined or fired is a matter for the adults not the children.

I get the impression that supply teachers get left in the shit with no support, again that's the school's fault not the children's. Many schools have no coherent detention or other punishment system for people who act up in class, again that's not the children's fault.

Whole class bolluckings aren't the worst thing in the world but I also agree that comment was just challenging the trouble makers to get another teacher fired.

I would just reassure DD that what happened wasn't her fault and sometimes adults make the wrong decisions.

Avrannakern, well, that’s actually not clear from the OP. The child said they were told they should have got another teacher. That of course is not on. But the deputy didn’t say that. I can’t think that any supply teacher would let children damage property or steal things IF THEY KNEW what was going on. I’d say it’s pretty clear they did NOT know. Obviously they SHOULD have kept a closer eye.

Thanks for your thoughts, I suppose my issues are

• that my DD feels really bad about something that wasn’t her fault
• that my DD thinks she now has to weigh up a ST’s ability and to have to judge wether to leave the class and call for help
• do the other children actually feel guilty or just empowered to do it again
• that the AHT has such a dim view of support staff and would call them “not real” teachers and the repercussions of this for future support staff
• that this is actully a consequence OF their actions and not FOR their actions: what is the punishment for the 5/6 children that caused the trouble? Surely not just a guilt trip? As I am tremendously worried about the behavior in the class, I had no idea my daughter was in such a disrespectful, disruptive class, this makes me feel sad because I just want her to learn and have fun at school, not be put in a situation she can’t handle - like leaving the classroom to SOS! And not to feel that because she didn’t go and SOS a guy she said was quiet and sweet and gentle lost his job at Christmas. We are four hours behind the UK here. Maybe I have over-reacts? Maybe I am being unreasonable, I’m just so annoyed that my DD was upset for the ST and that the AHT handled it as she did when I feel she could’ve chosen a more productive approach.

@nellieellie

We had a supply teacher who told us we could remove all the chairs from the class and bring in the bean bags from the indoor play room. You can imagine how little work actually got completed after that, and our normal teacher had to sort it all out.
Some supply teachers are really bad...

Obviously the kids need punished for the I part in it, but telling them they got a teacher fired is not an appropriate punishment. It's a separate issue and OP can support the school regarding the behaviour whilst still questioning that little piece of wisdom from the assistant head.

I would approach the school governors with this issue, just to make official. They can decide on a course of action with you from there.

If the situation is as exactly how you describe it ( the incident, the exact words of the assistant head etc), then there is a cause for concern.

1. The naughty kids will see it as a badge of honour that they got a teacher sacked. They won't care.

2. The kids that do care will be upset, and will have seen that the naughty kids have got the better of a teacher

3. The school doesn't appear to support it's staff, whether supply or permanent.

It's worth pursuing definitely.

OP, based on your latest post I completely agree with you actually. Please do bear in mind though, that teachers don't have all the answers regarding behaviour and the AHT probably does regret using those words. I think the best you can do is assure your child that she isn't personally responsible and that the supply teacher probably wouldn't want to go back.

You are definitely right to be concerned that your DD is in such an unpleasant environment. I always feel desperately sorry for the really good kids who are waiting for me while I deal with disruption but short of setting or selecting based on behaviour, what can you do?

Doesn’t sound a great school tbh

When I was in the fifth year (Year 11?), our Commerce teacher was off for a term. She came back and told us we had caused her nervous breakdown with our "behaviour". We really hadn't! We hadn't given her any grief at all. We were a top set of sensible (believe it or not)16 year olds studying for exams.

I often wonder what did cause her nervous breakdown. Perhaps it was the realisation that she'd been teaching us the wrong syllabus which, unsurprisingly, resulted in every single one of us failing...

there were five “culprits” yet the whole class is responsible for the poor guy being “fired”.

Surely the pupils are old enough to work out that it was the kids who behaved badly who were being addressed? This could've been handled better (the out of control kids should've been taken out of the class and dealt with appropriately) but presumably the supply teacher didn't do that and possibly couldn't accurately name those responsible afterwards, meaning a 'whole class talk' was the only course of action available? I agree that the wording used was unacceptable, but she could very well have been frustrated that others stood by and let it happen when they knew it was wrong. Kids really should know how to behave by this age and the teachers should not have to take time out of their lesson to police the results of bad/lazy/absent parenting.

Of course children should be aware of the consequences of their actions. But among these consequences are not anyone being fired. If they mess around with the craft table the consequence might be that they are no longer trusted to have one, they have to spend time cleaning up the area, they miss out on some other treat as the resources are now going towards replacing the materials that were damaged. Those are all realistic consequences. Having someone fired is not. If someone did in fact get fired it was not down to the children's bad behaviour.

*1) The naughty kids will see it as a badge of honour that they got a teacher sacked. They won't care.

2. The kids that do care will be upset, and will have seen that the naughty kids have got the better of a teacher*

This!

The worst thing here is the AHT telling the class that ST isn't a 'real' teacher. And then she wonders why the class play up for supply staff. I'd worry about having a SMT who cannot make the connection between their own attitudes and children's behaviour.

Just one thing - the AH said she told them the supply teacher wasn't coming back because of their behaviour. Perhaps this means the supply teacher made that decision because he didn't want to teach them any more and that's why the AH told the class off. When I was a supply teacher I almost walked out of a school due to the behaviour of a class - I knew them well and they weren't easy for any teacher but this one day they really pushed my buttons. The class teacher was in the school and read them the riot act - I went back in and they behaved much better and our relationship improved tremendously. They were still difficult but no more so than any other class in that school.
My point is, check what actually happened, what the AH said and what she meant before you go in all guns blazing. And you can tell your DD my story - it might relieve her of the guilt if she thinks the supply teacher has chosen not to come back.

If the class always behave this badly, then you do have cause for concern, but not for the reason you're posting about.

I understand why you're upset, but I think it's your job as a parent to talk to your daughter and reassure her and explain your viewpoint on the whole thing. A meeting with the Head seems so unnecessary and likely to cause bad feeling with the school.

My son is a quiet and studious boy who is sometimes kept in after school with his whole class because some of the kids in his class are noisy and disruptive. He understands that it's not his fault and the teacher is just doing his best to get through to the class. It doesn't upset him. They also have a policy of if someone is doing something wrong, they should call a teacher. I think in your case it's difficult as there already was a teacher in the room, but hopefully this kind of situation won't happen again and if another supply teacher come in they'll supervise them a bit better.

I'm not sure why I bothered getting a degree and PGCE for all the times I got "you're not a real teacher" just because I was on supply. Even if someone is being paid on cover supervisor rates they are still doing a valuable job to the school in attempting to continue the pupils' education in their teacher's absence. Yes there was some degree of failure in this instance, how much was down to the apptitude of the ST and how much due to the behaviour of individuals in the class can't be assessed from this thread and isn't the purpose of it.

Schools get the most out of supply teachers when they are supported. When they are treated as "real" staff, worthy of support. When the ST is appropriately briefed on the work set and support systems. Announcing that a ST is not a real teacher and that their behaviour has resulted in the ST being "fired" is a sure fire way to set the difficult members of the class up to get another ST "fired" and immediately sets the next ST up for a difficult day long before the agency gives them a phone call.

Supply teachers have a major disadvantage on regular staff because they don't know names, systems and the pupils as idividuals. Some pupils delight in exploiting that. The AHT should have concentrated entirely on the behaviour and responsibilities of the pupils involved when addressing the class.

I had two experiences of tough, notorious inner city schools of the same catchment. One I was a regular at. The staff were so supportive, and knew their students with difficulties well. It was easy to build up a rapport with most of the students and I always looked forwards to going there. The other that took many of the brothers of the girls at school one was a total hell hole. Most supply teachers blacklisted it. If you lasted a fortnight, you'd be offered a contract. Teachers would lock their classes in to stop escapees and intruders. The child who called me a "fucking twat" got breaktime detention; in every other school I've been in there would have been some kind of isolation/ exclusion for verbal abuse of staff. There were no systems of support, barely any curriculum (3 hour topic lessons FFS) The lessons were entirely computer based (paper free school) and nothing could be done to prevent half the class idling away on the internet at any given moment. Half the staff were supply just trying to survive too. I refused to go back after 4 soul destroying days- longer than average. I spoke to my agency, they got me out of day 5 with an interview and by the weekend I had got a job for the rest of the year in a delightful if rough around the edges school in another town.

(My own moment of supply teacher misbehaviour was daring to write silly names on the class list... I was told off the next week and realised how foolish I was to write it under my name, in my pen and my own writing. I learned my lesson... do it halfway down the list, in another pen with the other hand Karma has repaid me bountifully over the years )

Well, the OP is not in the UK so it's possible the supply teachers in her country don't have to be qualified.

My biggest concern would be that my DD is being educated alongside such appallingly behaved children. This seems beyond a naughtiness and actual vandalism and destruction of property. I think your anger is a bit misplaced, the kids in this class seem pretty much feral.