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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask why anti-Vacciners would prefer polio over autism

154 replies

scoobydoo87 · 03/12/2018 11:47

I'm not here to cause a fight but I'm genuinely interested in why people who are against vaccines use the autism card? Like medically it's proven that it doesn't but even so why would you prefer that your child had an eradicated illness rather than autism?

OP posts:
headinhands · 03/12/2018 15:13

Anyone is welcome to counter my opinion with reason and logic as to why anti-vaxxers share similarities to theists through their positions not being based on fact or reality. This is, after all, how debate works.

Bertram, I can't help but feel you're not used to hearing people disagree with others beliefs based on your reaction here, and on your posts on the thread about Mary and Joseph yesterday.

JamieVardysHavingAParty · 03/12/2018 15:20

Eh, can we park the debate about anti-religious bigotry and look at the actual thread subject?

Earlier on in this very thread, an MNer has posted something like she'd rather her child was deaf, blind, physically disabled or dead than autistic and I gritted my teeth and muttered 'it's her right to have an opinion, her right', even though I am, in fact, autistic, and find reading that kind of thing harshes my mellow.

With that in mind, get over the implicit mockery of theists. At least no-one's saying that they'd rather you were dead.

BertieBotts · 03/12/2018 15:29

I used to spend some time in antivax circles when DS1 was little. I'd never heard any criticism of vaccines before so I was worried by it and wanted to find out more. (He is vaccinated now.)

I don't think it's as simple as autism = alive. Autism can be very very severe and very debilitating. Of course it can be very mild as well and people can live full/happy/independent lives. But certainly it's not black and white like that. Certain conditions when discovered in utero can be terminated for, one well known example is Down's Syndrome, another syndrome which can range from having a mild effect to being so severe that the child has a very short life expectancy.

Also, most antivaxxers have moved on from autism since this is quite well proven not to be a link, unless they are part of the group which generally believe that "toxins" in our environment from a variety of sources are contributing to various health issues including autism, so they don't accept these studies as they don't believe vaccines are a sole cause, just part of a widespread issue.

When DS1 was little SIDS was the bogeyman "caused by vaccines", because the cause of SIDS is unknown and routine vaccines coincide with peak SIDS risk times (similar to how the MMR timing coincides with a typical autistic regression). Now there's research showing that babies who have been vaccinated on schedule are less susceptible to SIDS.

So the other one is "vaccine damage", which is a vague phrase basically referring to a combination of allergic reactions/bad side effects from the vaccine, which is absolutely a real risk, and can include encephalitis which can lead to permanent disability or death (I'll come back to this) and of unexplainable medical events for example autoimmune disorders, mental health issues, ADHD, and so on where we don't yet understand the causes, they get pinned onto vaccination because it's a blanket thing which most of the population has and most people don't understand very well. Plus, as you'll know, even if you're totally pro vaccination, it's never nice to take your tiny little unsuspecting baby to the doctor's to see them get painfully jabbed. I think there is a bit of a primal, needing to protect the baby from pain instinct going on there, you do have to have a pretty strong conviction that the benefit is worth it to be able to push past that one.

So that's the risks antivaxxers worry about, and honestly they aren't that insane. General toxins in environment probably is a legitimate worry, and it is worth being aware, though people should generally be aware that the concentrations in vaccines are well below the amounts considered dangerous, they do serve a purpose and the expert view is that the benefit outweighs the risk in this case many many times. This is a case where the incidence is high (it affects everyone) but the cost is low (nothing really happens as a result).

Allergic reactions and side effects are a risk which will never completely go away, but contrary to what antivaxxers will tell you the manufacturers and doctors and scientists are perfectly open about this, it's not some hidden scandal. The existence of compensation funds is not proof they are buying people off, it's simply an expected risk of treatment which is budgeted for. This is the case for all treatments. If there's a family history of this kind of reaction, doctors will usually advise that a child not have a particular (or sometimes any) vaccines. This is the opposite of the toxin problem in that the incidence is low - it affects hardly anyone - but the cost is high. For that reason some people find it a scary risk to accept.

However most people accept the expert view which is that the benefits of vaccination in terms of preventing disease make these two small risks worth it. Antivaxxers don't - either because they can't get past the low incidence, high cost risk (which is odd because they are accepting another) - or, mostly, because they don't actually believe that the benefits are that great. Some antivaxxers simply don't believe vaccination is effective (I find this one really hard to get my head around - I don't understand what they think clinical trials are for), some believe it works fine but that natural immunity is "better" (despite the process of gaining natural immunity being much more risky than a vaccine...), some believe it's simply unnecessary because these diseases are declining anyway, some believe that the disease will mutate to "get around" the vaccine - BTW - odd, OP, that you brought this up as an anti-antivax argument, when it is one they tend to use themselves! In any case you're both getting confused with antibiotic resistance. But the most common theory I heard was that many of the diseases we vaccinate against aren't really very serious, the ones which particularly come up here are measles, mumps, chicken pox, whooping cough, rotavirus and flu. I could get into this more but the post is long enough.

Thankfuckitsfriday1 · 03/12/2018 16:34

There’s no scientific link between vaccines and autism.

However my son was developing very normally for his age and had good amount of speech before his MMR vaccine. He lost if all and more in the regression that came the weeks following. I’ve always thought they are linked, there’s no evidence and it could be coincidental but it’s odd how the MMR is given around the same time as many children with autism have a substantial regression. I’ve often wondering if it triggered something. He still is non verbal now. However I’d rather he have autism than polio.. obviously. And I find it actually quite upsetting something said they’d rather their child dead then autistic considering how large the spectrum is.

I’ve also spoken to parents who’s children regressed around the exact time of the MMR also.

We’ve chosen not to give it to our daughter.

BertramKibbler · 03/12/2018 17:12

Eh, can we park the debate about anti-religious bigotry and look at the actual thread subject?

I’ll atop discussing anti-religious bigotry when people on the website stop being prejudiced towards those with religious beliefs. Religion has absolutely nothing to do with this thread and yet some despicable poster thought they’d Make some tenuous link in order to spew their hate speech. I for one am beyond fed up of the disgusting attitudes this forum allows.

claraschu · 03/12/2018 17:17

ThankFuck I know 3 people with the same story as you (though one of them is a friend of my sister's and I don't actually know her personally).

I was so concerned that I delayed my daughter's inoculations a bit. It is very easy to dismiss people's concerns as sheer stupidity until you see a child have a reaction and regression. That is frightening.

longestlurkerever · 03/12/2018 17:19

You're being ridiculous. No one is spewing hate speech or being despicable. They just disagree.

I totally agree that the other comments about autism were far more offensive, though it would have been just as offensive to make the comparison the other way around. Just unnecessary really.

ClaryFray · 03/12/2018 17:31

Because they need to be scared of something. Big pharma is a good scape goat. Vaccines mean we're spared the sight and suffering of the old days, and they think as a result of that it's not needed.

BrazenFoxed · 03/12/2018 17:48

What I don’t get it parents just believing random stuff that’s posted on Facebook and other websites and not checking the source

How on earth do you know that's all they are doing? Most published studies can be accessed on websites. Does that negate their validity?

MrMeSeeks · 03/12/2018 18:05

for one am beyond fed up of the disgusting attitudes this forum allows.
Really?there’s been no bad posts, or they would have been deleted.

headinhands · 03/12/2018 18:09

I’ll atop discussing anti-religious bigotry when people on the website stop being prejudiced towards those with religious beliefs.

Well that can't be me because I have formed my opinion using reasons which I laid out initially (which you haven't countered). And neither have I caused you any harm.

And why are you focusing on the the religion side of my comparison. Why are you not upset about the comments about those who choose not to vaccinate? Or can people only be prejudiced when they are saying things that you feel are contrary to your stance?

Elfinablender · 03/12/2018 18:11

Hate speech?

Why do you think that I hate you simply because I think that religion is a belief system based on faith? Confused

flirtygirl · 03/12/2018 18:14

Typical stupid responses mostly.

Polio is a horrible disease and yes largely eradicated but if a child had or has polio, you don't fight for help every step of the way... because you know, they have polio.

With autism you fight for a diagnosis and if you are lucky to get one you then fight every single day and then when you have any help in place you are lucky. Then at 18 they are handed over to non existent adult services and you are fucked again.

Polio or autism, equally horrendous in different ways depending on the severity.

It's a hard choice BUT it does not make a parent stupid when they make their best who decision based on information.

Most people calling anti vaxxers stupid have never had to deal with a disabled child.

headinhands · 03/12/2018 18:19

Bertram, I postulated (and it's something I've thought for a while) that there are similarities between anti vaccine beliefs and religion specifically because neither are based on evidence/realty, and are based on feelings/faith. I said nothing about the intelligence of either group. You're muddling my unremarkable observation with some of the more strident comments on here.

MrMeSeeks · 03/12/2018 18:33

Most people calling anti vaxxers stupid have never had to deal with a disabled child.

There are actually people on this thread with autism and children who are autistic, so i’m sure they do know. Confused

KillingInThenameof764 · 03/12/2018 19:04

I'll probably get flamed posting this , I've never commented on vaccination threads before but here goes .

My paternal aunt was brain damaged by a vaccination . Vaccine damage is a real thing , there is even a vaccine damage payment fund through the DWP . I don't believe the link between MMR and autism for what it's worth .

I had my first baby when I was a teenager and opted not to have her vaccinated thinking that I could always change my mind when she was older but if I went ahead and vaccinated I couldn't take that back once it was done . I've now got 4 children and had many many sleepless nights worrying about something that could have been prevented happening (specifically meningitis) but also worrying about causing vaccine damage to them .

I had my youngest child this year and when he was 12 weeks old I decided to start the vaccine schedule , he had his first lot and I was utterly convinced it had 'changed' him . I was suffering pnd and anxiety , after being referred to the perinatal mental health team and a lot of extensive talking to the gp and health visitor I decided to continue with the vaccine schedule . He's almost one now and my three older children are having their first lot of jabs on Friday ! My stomach is in knots thinking about it , it's taken me years to make this decision but I think(hope!) I've educated myself enough to make the right choice .

What I'm trying to say is , when it comes to anti vaxxers , it's not always necessarily black and white . I could have had my first child vaccinated as a baby and god forbid something awful happened to her I would have blamed the vaccine . On the other hand if she caught a disease I would have blamed myself .

headinhands · 03/12/2018 19:42

Why are you comparing autism and polio? What's the connection? It's not either/or?

Butteredghost · 03/12/2018 19:51

And I find it actually quite upsetting something said they’d rather their child dead then autistic considering how large the spectrum is...... We’ve chosen not to give it to our daughter.

Hang on, so you were offended by me saying I wouldn't vaccinate my child if it would give them autism, but you admit you didn't vaccinate your dd in case she develops autism? So actually you think the same way? Except your actions are way more offensive because you actually didn't vaccinate, and mine were hypothetical.

I'm sorry people found my post offensive. I knew it's not pc to say, I suppose the "correct" answer is "yes I wouldn't care a jot if my kid had autism, all autistic people are wonderful creative people, it's not a disability". Sorry but its a spectrum and some people are severely disabled from it. Anyone able to read this and post in reply clearly isn't severely autistic, so don't speak for others that are. And no it's not just "discrimination". I have a family member who is severely affected, and he doesn't even understand the idea of discrimination, but he still is very tormented.

But why did OP ask? Its an offensive question by nature isn't it. OP asked if hypothetically, vaccines did cause autism, surely it would still be better than the risk of dying from polio. That's inviting people to answer well imo no it isn't.

headinhands · 03/12/2018 20:10

Sorry. Is there any evidence that autism is caused by vaccines? (rare vaccine damage cases aside). I can think of quite a few older people who wouldn't have had the mmr who would pass the threshold for a dx. I can think of several children Inwas at school with who would also qualify but they were just odd/loners/extremely shy. The lower functioning would have been dx with the nebulous 'mental retardation.'

Zoflorabore · 03/12/2018 20:19

Yes I don't understand the poster who was offended but then went on to say that she hasn't had her daughter vaccinated.

Like I said upthread, i have a 15yr old with AS and a 7yr old dd who is NT.
I still got her vaccinated as to me the worst thing that could happen if she contracted a disease could be death.
And I repeat that autism isn't a death sentence. It wasn't even a consideration really that she wouldn't be vaccinated because if she wasn't, she would basically have been "punished" for having an older brother with a condition that isn't his fault,
Or anyone else's for that matter.

Butteredghost · 03/12/2018 20:29

Is there any evidence that autism is caused by vaccines?

Luckily, no. That's why I think if OP wants to convince anti vaxers, they should stick to arguments such as "scientists have found there is no link, check out these peer reviewed studies". Forget arguments like "well is autism that bad really?". It's irrelevant whether it's bad or not because there isn't a link.

Zoflorabore · 03/12/2018 20:32

4 out of 8 gc in our family have it, varying severity. I do believe there is some sort of hereditary element.
That is only my own personal opinion based on my family and has caused a lot of discussion about possibilities of older family members who may also have it. I think I have.

isadoradancing123 · 03/12/2018 20:34

Most people vaccinate against. Diphtheria, polio and tetanus. It is the mm right they are concerned about

tryinganewname · 03/12/2018 20:34

Took DD for her 3rd lot of jabs the other day and mentioned to my mum where I was going.. her response was 'I wish you hadn't told me, I worry about what's in them'. On asking further what the hell she was on about, she seems to think that they cause autism.. and that is much worse than DD being ill with a potentially life threatening disease!! Like a previous posted has said, you can't argue with stupid.

Following this, it turns out that a cousin of mine isn't vaccinated - she is 3 weeks younger than me so naturally we spent a lot of time together growing but my mum clearly thought nothing of it.

JamieVardysHavingAParty · 03/12/2018 20:34

Anyone able to read this and post in reply clearly isn't severely autistic, so don't speak for others that are. And no it's not just "discrimination". I have a family member who is severely affected, and he doesn't even understand the idea of discrimination, but he still is very tormented.

And there's my bingo card filled up!

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