To stop sending my child to nursery cause they allow him outside

[O8O818]

here me out, I hope I'm not being PFB but I am so fed up with my child's nursery. Time and time again I've said he is not to be outside, but nobody listens! Each day he comes home caked in mud, all up his back, caked on his shoes, not wearing any gloves or a hat, some times not even wearing his wellies just his indoor shoes! Its Baltic. On Friday I went to collect him and they said he was outside making hot chocolate... with the mud he was rolling around like a pig in shit but he was covered from head to toe, in his hair, his ears, his back from when another kid through a mudball at him I don't know whether I'm overreacting though? Aibu!!

I havent seen a thread where RTFT was more relevant since "cancel the cheque".

OP I hope you find a solution.

Ok, I freely admit I haven't read the whole thread, but I've read the first few pages and the last couple of OP posts and, yes, I think you need to explore other childcare options op. A CM sounds like a good option, if you can find one.

I hope you find an answer OP - in the meantime I would try and get a meeting with the manager and be calmly, quietly, icily, very very cross. They are letting your DS down and it isn't good enough. You are paying them for a service that they are not providing and you have every right to get mad about it. You don't have to bang the table to get your point across, but you should be holding them to account.

Apologies if this has been suggested, I just lost the will to read 500,000 repetitions of 'Get him some wellies and a puddle suit!' after the first few dozen 🙄

Anyone who bothered to read even only ops posts would not be repeating that the nursery is great, that outdoor play is good, that op just needs to buy outdoor clothes would they?

Over 350 posts and people are still banging on about how marvelous it is that a 2yr old with extra needs is left outside without outdoor clothes in November!

Makes you wonder how people manage to read other things properly in rl.

Apologies if this has been suggested, I just lost the will to read 500,000 repetitions of 'Get him some wellies and a puddle suit!' after the first few dozen

That's understandable, it's very repetitive.

I'm surprised the OP keeps coming back. Not sure I would be as calm as her with the posters claiming she is unreasonable, because they can't be bothered to read past her opening post.

Too many people are assuming that there is no supervision.

Yesterday I pointed out that it is entirely possible for an adult who is indoors to adequately supervise a child who is outdoors. Many nurseries and practically every non-helicopter mum I know has done this. If it amounts to a lack of care, then social services are going to have a lot of families to interview, never mind childcare providers.

I also asked what specific hazard/risk exists in the outdoor space which might demand closer supervision than this.

I asked because it’s worth knowing the facts before making a judgment.

This appears to be an inconvenient line of questioning, as everyone has ignored it, and continued to condemn the nursery based on assumptions coupled with their own worst imaginings.

The other 'inconvenience' is that, having RTFT (as people so nicely put it) a number of glaring inconsistencies jump out from the OP's numerous posts.

This appears to be an inconvenient line of questioning, as everyone has ignored it

Well only the OP can answer it can’t she?

@itsaboojum I don't know anyone that would allow a 2yo to play outside by themselves.

Also the nursery have said the ops child being outside allows them to have one on one time with the other children. Hardly sounds as if someone is looking out the window watching the child

"Well only the OP can answer it..."

The nursery might but they’re excluded from the debate, which is always going to be the major problem with 'trial by message board'.

In the absence of such a balanced account, it’s disturbing that MNers have chosen to condemn prematurely.

It is however worth noting the OP did let slip the following.....

*”There’s a massive mud pit just across from the window so if there was someone sitting there watching him they’d notice instantly if something was wrong....... I don’t know if this is what happens."

Go figure.....

When staff members have told op that her ds is so good they can leave him outside on his own and do 1:1 with another child or do things with other kids and that he doesnt need someone out there with him then obviously nobody is watching him constantly so nobody is assuming anything.

This is not a parent and child situation. The nursery have a duty of care to include him in indoor learning activities too never mind make sure he is dressed appropriately for outdoors.
No child in a nursery should be outside on thier own. If anything happened nursery would not have a leg to stand on.

The fact that they allow him to get covered head to toe in mud in indoor clothing is a huge flag that no nobody is watching him
Messy play doesnt mean getting as wet and dirty as you possibly can.

It happens in plenty of nurseries and is accepted by inspectors across the U.K.

It happens in plenty of nurseries and is accepted by inspectors across the U.K.

By this do you mean 2 year olds playing outside without an adult? If so I have never come across this, and I doubt any parents or inspectors would be impressed at such young children being left to their own devices like this. Watching through a window isn't adequate supervising (if that's even happening here) If children are outside a staff member should be with them.

It happens in plenty of nurseries and is accepted by inspectors across the U.K.

Oh really? Do you work for offsted or the care inspectorate?

No one with half a brain would think it's ok to allow a 2yo to play outside by themselves.

I though nurseries structured play for their charges, not just left them to their own devices.

I really don't think so Itsaboojum I am in Scotland like the Op and so under the same regulatory regime. When forest kindergarten was introduced it had be done in controlled batches because the staff had to have additional training in safety and enrichment for outdoor play. They didn't just chuck the kids out the back door to the nearest mudpit and observe from an inside window.

I do often wonder what motivates people to be so bent on challenging an Op rather than making constructive suggestions? Leads me to assume there must be some people seeking to justify leaving their 2 year old slathering in the mud while they indulge their Jeremy Kyle habit.

Firstly, there are strict adult:child ratios that Nurseries have to follow. There is absolutely no way a child/children could be allowed outside without the correct amount of adults being with them. If an Ofsted inspector found that an outdoor play area was under-staffed, the manager would be in serious trouble for neglecting duty of care in regards to health and safety, and safeguarding. No staff at all!? Just wouldn’t happen unless the manager wanted to get their own nursery shut down.
Secondly, the forest school philosophy is greatly encouraged by Ofsted but it needs to be done appropriately! There’s a difference between a child getting muddy and having a child absolutely covered from head to toe in mud! I seriously don’t get the point of the photo of a very slightly muddy wellington boot?

Nurseries allow free play. That means some structured activities and some unstructured with children free to choose. Some children always choose unstructured. Any nursery forcing kids to choose structured activities would rightly get a very bad report.

Also as an ex nursery worker if kids refused to put on coats to play outside in the nursery, we would let them play outside. Otherwise coats would be off on the ground within seconds. And few kids playing outside like this are going to keep gloves and scarves on. Different for trips out, but most kids are in and out all the time, only playing outside for short bursts.

We used to get complaints about kids being messy - usually with paint. Impossible to stop. Kids used to be cleaner in the old days when we used to use old men's shirts as they totally covered a child. But when OFSTED came along we had to use proper aprons which never worked as well, however all encompassing they were supposed to be.

No nursery can have a worker standing outside watching 1 child all the time. For 2 year olds the ratio is one worker to three kids. So what happens to the other two kids? The reality is the worker would be going in and out checking on all the kids. And no way would there only be one kid playing outside all the time. Many kids don't seem to care about the cold and will happily play out in all weathers. So in reality there would be nearly all the time other kids playing out with a worker. It is possible a kid could be left playing outside by themselves for a minute or two.

And some kids no matter what you do get filthy.

It’s the number of disturbing inconsistencies in the OP's posts that leave her open to challenge.

We’re to believe they never put his wellies on. But his wellies get covered in mud. ?

They never put his jacket on. But that got covered in mud. ?

"He always has a coat" (though sometimes it's not a coat). But "it's not their fault if he doesn’t have a coat." ?

He's always the only one outside. But some other child threw mud at him outside. ?

"It's Baltic" and "freezing". And yet the mud is still wet? Is this some rare form of uniquely Scottish mud, because round my way the mud freezes when it's "Baltic". ?

itsaboojum Quite. But hopefully this means there really isn't a mother sitting there bitching about having to wash muddy boots when her son isn't getting basic care!

abucat so glad my DC don't go to your nursery. DC learn by consistent rules. No coat etc = no going outdoors. Take your coat off = go inside till you put it back on. If there are no rules then I don't think it is possible to manage multiple DC or give them much in the way of enrichment.

Also a weird set up where each worker rigidly sticks to their own charges. Much more normal to have staff sharing roles with key worker for beginning and end of day and tears and tantrums.

I do agree with you on painting shirts though.

And, in answer to the questions.....

Yes, I have been present in group settings (including nurseries, Surestart centre, a school, and childminders) during Ofsted inspections where childr3n in outdoor spaces were supervised from indoors. It was not challenged. In about half the cases, the ensuing reports made positive comments about unhindered free-flow between indoors and outdoors and/or the benefits of children being allowed to self-select their own activities.

Definitely look at a CM. I'm sure SALT can be accessed in other ways and at 2yo, it's much better that your DS is in a safe environment.

Also, he's not improving his speech if he's outside alone at nursery for most of the time he's there. If he's on his own then he's not communicating verbally with anyone is he.

I wouldn't be worried about the mud. I would be very concerned that he's outside without waterproofs on, sometimes without a coat and without gloves and a hat. I'd also be very concerned no one is out there with him (especially if it's so cold that a worker doesn't want to be outside, they should be assessing therefore whether it's too cold for him to outside for extended periods). 30mins might be fine, then in to warm up, then outside again for 30mins. He wouldn't get so muddy, if he was outside for less time and supervised, they would also help direct him to more structured muddy play, rather than rolling in the mud. I would also expect them to change his clothes to ensure he's warm.

Op, I think you need to look for different childcare.

One of my DCs had delayed speech and I found a very experienced childminder who was fantastic with her. If your DS goes to a childminder he will be around other children. This nursery isn’t the right place for your DS to be as it sounds like they are neglectful.

Is DS also getting physiotherapy help?

I have worked in many nurseries and have never witnessed a situation where a child was left either outside or inside alone.
If you had 2 adults and 8 children you would either have all out, all in, or one adult inside and one outside.
In fact in most nurseries you would avoid ever having only one adult outside due to the additional risks, children needing toileting etc.

Even if this nursery is managing to stay just about legal with their minimal supervision, practice is clearly very poor.