Moral Dilemma - to sell this and pocket the cash?

[PersonaNonGarter]

I have a moral dilemma.

A Sponging Relative (‘SR’) has run up so much debt that he has finally been evicted from his property and is likely to be made bankrupt shortly. He is also a massive hoarder. Recently, my aunt went to visit SR and suggested he part with some toys rather than pack them before eviction. The toys were given to my DC.

The toys turn out to be worth a lot of money and I will sell them rather than have them take up space - DC aren’t going to play with them. Should I :

1. Pocket the cash and give it to my DC on some way like a holiday
2. Give it to the very skint SR
3. Give the cash to some of the people SR has sponged off.

He doesn’t sponge off me although he has tried. In law, I know they were a gift and are mine/DCs. But morally...?

If he's a massive hoarder then being told they are definitely worth money will just feed his illness. He'll want to hold on to them forever & be even more upset if the Receiver tries to demand them. Telling him about their value is not a good path.

Selling them & giving him the money: he'll be upset that he lost them & didn't keep them to appreciate for even longer. This is not kind to anyone.

I think it is important that the toys were given to the OP's children. The toys are legally theirs as are any proceeds of sale should OP decide on their behalf to sell them.

It would be different if the property had been a gift to her. Then she would be free to decide who had the moral claim to it or the proceeds.

But it's not hers, it's the DC's money. The OP has a moral obligation to them to act in their interests. That moral obligation aligns with their legal ownership. She should put it in an account for them when they are 18.

So the landlord misses out because you don’t feel he should get it. You lot seem like a right old family of cons.

As a LL l felt very sick to read rent arrears of 39K...how has the property not been repossessed? Must be a very wealthy LL

No, just very kind.

A bit gullible and very committed to the church. The kind of lovely person who is a soft touch for SR simply because they want to believe people are good and honest and will do what they say they will.

Don't say a word to the SR or the aunt. That way lies a great deal of stress and much grief and hassle and complications and family disagreements when dealing with a complex family! Sell or store and sell later. Use the money as you see fit. Think no more of it.

@Isleepinahedgefund - please see sections 339 and 341 of the Insolvency Act 1986. These explain Transactions at an Undervalue and the relevant time limits. The law is quite clear. Whether the Official Receiver acts on it is a different matter, but the OP is at risk if the OR does act.
"(3)For the purposes of this section and sections 341 and 342, an individual enters into a transaction with a person at an undervalue if—
(a)he makes a gift to that person or he otherwise enters into a transaction with that person on terms that provide for him to receive no consideration,
(b)he enters into a transaction with that person in consideration of marriage [F1or the formation of a civil partnership], or
(c)he enters into a transaction with that person for a consideration the value of which, in money or money’s worth, is significantly less than the value, in money or money’s worth, of the consideration provided by the individual."

You don’t need to do anything to realise the cash you contact the trustee in bankruptcy and if they’re interested they’ll arrange collection and sell it.

Your uncle cannot unilaterally choose to divest assets including by way of a gift - he no longer has autonomy over his estate. The trustee will advertise to find all creditors, ingather all funds, rank creditors according to law (not who you seem to deem worthy) and see if anything can be repaid, even by a proportion.

That aside, if someone gives you something to use then you do so, you don’t sell it and pocket the cash. All the more so in this case as you say both relatives concerned specifically place a value on the toys staying in the family. Someone gave me their kid’s old wooden toy horse. It’s been used by my child for a year and is outgrown. I asked friend if she wanted it back to regift or sell before I put it into charity shop. I agree you sound a bit shitty.

Op.. Why don't you sell the toys and whatever cost you expend plus £10 per genuine hour you spend taking pics, posting listing etc, you deduct from the proceeds and give the rest back to him or save for when bankruptcy commences so he will have some cash to start repaying?

I don't often respond to threads in here but this one I felt compelled to do so. It is not your property to do with as you wish. It is not up to your aunt to appropriate other peoples property. To consider selling any of it and keeping the funds is, to me and others, theft. Your relative has a reputation for being a sponger....or has difficulty managing monies and may have mental health issues. Whatever your personal thoughts about him are, these items are not yours and should be returned. A build-up of debts is somebody out of control. Having a degree and being intelligent does not mean someone has basic common sense and may need support.

The landlord is "bit gullible and very committed to the church. The kind of lovely person who is a soft touch for SR simply because they want to believe people are good and honest and will do what they say they will."

Makes your wanting to sell the toys and pocket the cash even more despicable.
I too see this as theft and your repreated protestations that your moral compass is just fine is quite depressing.

You my to to bro getting a bit of a hard time here.
To be fair £2k is a drop in the ocean compared to what he owes.
Personally I’d sell the toys and put the money in the bank for the kids and resolve to teach them about saving and being sensible with money :-)

Whatever your personal thoughts about him are, these items are not yours and should be returned.

The items are mine/DCs. On that I am completely clear. They were given to us, definitively. My aunt might suggest that SR give them but she would not coerce him or steal from SR. Both consider it was a good solution.

To those people focussed on the receiver/trustee - this applies only where there has been a gratuitous alienation. That is where someone deliberately gives away an asset to avoid it being caught in the bankruptcy process. Not the case here - which is the gift of toys to children.

Also, it would appear that the toys were gifted before he declared himself bankrupt?

So if you’re so convinced they’re yours, why the ‘moral dilemma’?

I think you just wanted people to cheer you on and are now a bit pissed off that it didn’t happen.

He hasn’t declared himself bankrupt but HMRC will declare him bankrupt in the New Year (according to accountant).

Obviously, I think this is a genuine moral dilemma or why would I post? I don’t need the confirmation of strangers to put my own stuff on eBay.

If it all looks black and white to you - that’s great (and helpful). To me it seemed nuanced because of the different types of creditors (including nice family and friends as well as tax man) and because of the nature of SR. And because they were a gift to my DC.

If they are Star Wars you’d, my son would love them! Please send them to me! I would be happy to send she suitable gifts (that they would like to play with) for your children in return

2 it is his property

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I just can't believe that you'd sell toys that were intended for your children to play with and pocket the money!
This man, however useless he is with money, kindly gave them away, most likely unaware of their value.

I don't know how you could live with the guilt of spending any money gained on yourself, but you seem quite defensive and seem to have decided that you're entitled to do this anyway.

I don't think it's up to you to decide if the proceeds go to him or his creditors either, I just think you should either let the kids play with the toys or hand them back to him. If you hand them back, their fate is his business as well. It's not for you to justify taking the proceeds by saying he's not a very nice person. He was kind enough to let your children have his toys, regardless of how much pressure he was under to give them up.

If it were me I'd definitely hand them back though.

What a sad, depressed man he sounds like :(

I just can't believe that you'd sell toys that were intended for your children to play with and pocket the money!

I'd be pretty at my parents if they told me they handed over toys worth ££££ for me to trash as a child when they knew the value. I'd say - why didn't you save them / sell them?!

Really what you should probably do is put them in the attic for when your kids come of age and let them have the fun of selling them.

Unless you need the money sooner for something that benefits the kids.

The fact that you would gladly swan off on a £2000 holiday, paid for by treasured family toys being sold behind your relatives back while said relative goes bankrupt is disgusting. I mean it says everything really doesn't it?

What he chooses to do with these items upon learning their monetary value is up to him. Regardless of whether he wants to cherish them forever, pay towards his debts or piss the money up the wall....they belong to him and the money is his. It isn't up to you to decide how his assets will be spent, you can't just decide he doesn't deserve his own money because you think you could spend it better.

He was willing to pass them down the family line although wouldn't have got rid so agreed to give them to your children in good faith. You have vetted their monetary value before giving to the children and decided they won't play with them as they are now valuable to you. Bloody lovely that is.

Karma's only a bitch if you are.

I don’t need the confirmation of strangers to put my own stuff on eBay.
Then why have you posted on here? The more I read of this thread, the more I can see just how grabby and unpleasant you are. If you didn’t want the toys, you should have just said no or returned them. You won’t even be honest with you aunt and SR about what you plan to do. Which is sell them to strangers - they expressly wanted you to have them to keep them in the family. If this wasn’t your plan because your children wouldn’t play with them, regardless of their worth, you should have said no, or given them an opportunity to take them back.
You clearly came on here to to justify your own greed. The majority of posters think you are morally (possibly also legally, with bankruptcy looming) wrong. Every post of yours here is self-justification after self-justification.
SR might well be the irresponsible, lazy hoarder you portray, you aunt also might be a hoarder. You, however, are a grabby CF. Infinitely worse. You won’t be honest with them in order to keep all the money yourself. I hope they both find out and give you hell.

The guidance I'm reading is that 'gifts' can only be 'clawed back' by the Official Receiver if they were given away with the intention of keeping them out of the hands of the Official Receiver. Items given away in good faith as gifts, OR won't be empowered to claim.

SR didn't give them away with creditor-avoidance intentions.

Great post, SherryToes

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