Moral Dilemma - to sell this and pocket the cash?

[PersonaNonGarter]

I have a moral dilemma.

A Sponging Relative (‘SR’) has run up so much debt that he has finally been evicted from his property and is likely to be made bankrupt shortly. He is also a massive hoarder. Recently, my aunt went to visit SR and suggested he part with some toys rather than pack them before eviction. The toys were given to my DC.

The toys turn out to be worth a lot of money and I will sell them rather than have them take up space - DC aren’t going to play with them. Should I :

1. Pocket the cash and give it to my DC on some way like a holiday
2. Give it to the very skint SR
3. Give the cash to some of the people SR has sponged off.

He doesn’t sponge off me although he has tried. In law, I know they were a gift and are mine/DCs. But morally...?

You really need to tell your aunt, OP. Why can you not see that?
If you didn’t want to ‘hoard’ these items yourself, you should have said do at the time your aunt gave them to you, she wanted to give them to your children for nostalgic reasons - because she didn’t want them given away out of the family. Why can’t you just be honest with your aunt?
If they are worth as much as you say, and your SR is facing almost £40k of debt and likely to be declared bankrupt, these items are likely to come under the OR’s purview. It be possible, as others have said, that your aunt - though well meaning - had no right to give these items to you at all.

1. SR is obviously struggling and they did belong to him before bring convinced to part with them.

There is always the possibility that your useless relative KNOWS the value of these items and is hoping that he can use you as a hiding place for an asset

That's another interesting point to consider. It does seem strange that they are willing to let go of these toys. Which judging on their value must be pretty rare and unusual if not still sealed in original packaging, to some children he can't even remember the names of.

Must also say I don't see a world of difference between him staying in a nicer hotel briefly and your family going on holiday.

The OP deserves a family holiday because she's taking one for the team by secretly selling the toys behind hoarder auntie's back. She can't give them back because an extra box of toys in an already full house will push the aunt over the edge. And the SR isn't entitled to the money because he's a dick. But then his creditors shouldn't get the money either because reasons. So there really is no other solution. This is the only way.

I'm guessing the toys are either old Hornby trains or Matchbox cars, that kind of thing. I'd sell. You'll make a collector very happy. Keep any receipts/proof of sale etc.

Then put the money into a bank account. If the bankruptcy people come a calling, you can hand over the money. If not, in a few years your DC can use it for education expenses or towards s house deposit.

The OP deserves fuck all. This has nothing whatsoever to do with what anyone deserves and everything to do with the OP being mercenary in this instance. It has been made patently clear to her that in the event of bankruptcy, the gift of those toys could be clawed back from her (unless everyone in the family keeps quiet so as to rip creditors off). If she chooses to ignore this, she is neither deserving nor moral.

If the OP jusr wants to know if she can get away with it, the answer may well be yes - depending on any hidden knowledge or motivations of other family members, which may not be revealed until the OP tries to flog the goods!

What’s coming out loud and clear from the OP’s posts is that she comes from quite a fucked up family. And that is bound to have had an effect on her own thinking and judgment.

Yes, to those that know which way is up, her moral compass is off. But imagine if you were brought up and surrounded by relatives who sponge, hoard, have lost their homes and possessions through bad decisions. That is bound to have had an effect and it shows in the OP’s skewered thinking.

It’s clear that OP is doing mental and emotional gymnastics in order to justify her belief that selling and profiting from a gift without sharing this knowledge with the gifters is ok. And who is anyone to judge unless they have been brought up with a damaged was of thinking and can understand how that happened.

Sell them, invest the proceeds for your DC that they can't access until the youngest is 21 or similar.

Family toys, family money, going to the youngest in the family..

You sound very grabby. How long ago did you get the toys? Seems like the first thing you did was check their value. I assume since you say the family used to be wealthy you were expecting them to be worth something.

Morally wrong to me to keep the proceeds.

I would contact your aunt, explain that the toys are not appropriate for your DC but you have discovered that they are worth a lot of money. Ask her if she would like the toys back given your DC are not going to play with them or would she like you to sell them as you thought that the money may be useful either for SR or other relatives who are owed money by him, but if you do sell them and give money back then take a % for your time in doing this as you didn't ask for any of this.

Alternatively stick the toys up in your loft for a while as they were gifted to your DC. Your DC may chose to play with them at some point or they may wish to sell themselves when they are older.

I wouldn't sell them at this point in time unless asked to by your aunt .

I don't think there is anything wrong with your moral compass OP. I think this is a difficult situation and there is no right or wrong answer. I don't think you can give the box of toys back as it sounds like neither SR not aunt has space for them. You don't want them in your house so selling them is a good option. It sounds like giving any money raised to SR will be squandered in the same reckless fashion he has squandered money others have given him over the years. I would be inclined to save it for your DC to use in the future.

Wow, this has aroused a lot of passion! Thanks to everyone who has posted.

There is nothing wrong with my moral compass, it is set just fine. That’s why, despite me being the legal owner of these toys, I have posted here to discuss it - because it is a bit of a moral maze given the precarious situation with SR and his creditors. I find it quite strange that some people think I am grabby: I didn’t invite the toys and wasn’t aware of their actual value until long after the aunt had gone away. They were part of a delivery of ‘stuff’. I don’t want to keep them so I am wondering what to do next.

Some people have got quite hung up on my aunt, which I don’t really understand. She never bought or owned these toys - she transported them because she too is a hoarder and could not conceive of them going to a charity shop.

I didn’t invite the toys and wasn’t aware of their actual value until long after the aunt had gone away. They were part of a delivery of ‘stuff’. I don’t want to keep them

How long have you been in possession of the toys? Also if you don't want to keep them, and your relative is about to go bankrupt surely the easy option is to ask your aunt to return them to the relative?

If you really feel guilty - sell the toys, put money made into an escrow and leave it for several years. If deadbeat relative asks for it, give them the money minus interest and the cost of storage/selling etc.

despite me being the legal owner of these toys

Are you, though? You don't even know for sure SR gave them to you!

I like the suggestion of sell them & give the proceeds to the family member (who is a creditor) & the most discreet about not dragging OP into it all.

If you can't do that, then give almost all the proceeds to a good charity that helps people with mental health issues (like hoarding disorder). I don't see anything wrong with OP's lines of logic or moral compass.

I would give the toys back. Despite knowing from experience it can cause a bit of a ruckus when you're dealing with a hoarder. I know SR isn't local to you, but I would contact him, say the kids aren't playing with the toys and does he want to arrange for aunt to collect them and bring them back to him?

If he doesn't sort out the toys going back in a timely manner then I'd tell him you'll be getting rid of them. Feel free to sell them, but I'd keep the money and sale documentation safe until the bankruptcy has gone through.

If you can't do that, then give almost all the proceeds to a good charity that helps people with mental health issues (like hoarding disorder).

If OP does that and creditors later find out about the toys and their value, wouldn't she be responsible for paying the money back?

Genuinely curious, as I don't want the OP to have an unexpected bill down the road.

I bet OP could give to charity anonymously. Too many what-ifs in worrying about the creditors who don't as of now know about the toys, anyway, and if they did know there were any toys, would assume they're nasty dirty ruined like most of a hoarder's stuff usually is.

As a result of a conversation between aunt and SR, toys were given to OP.

They are hers.

To do with as she will. (On behalf of her kids).

I am amazed that the LL did not send bailiffs in. But that isn’t the OP’s business or problem.

The alternative seems to have been that they went from Aunt to charity shop, in which case no money would have gone to LL or other creditors. Giving them to the OP has appeased aunt and SRs hoarding anxiety.

This has been hoarder MH behaviour not cunning asset stripping.

As a result of a conversation between aunt and SR, toys were given to OP.

OP hasn't said that, I think. So we don't know that the possessions were the aunt's to give.

“Recently, my aunt went to visit SR and suggested he part with some toys rather than pack them before eviction. The toys were given to my DC. “ So unless the aunt fought him for the its or took them by stealth behind his back, we assume that when she ‘suggested’ it, he agreed?

I suspect that the OP might have added any info that covered the aunt taking stuff that wasn’t hers?

I am assuming the aunt is parent or sibling to the SR, not that it makes any difference.

Who knows what happened between the SR and aunt? We still don't know SR knows HIS possessions are with OP or not.

It does not matter if the toys were given to OP if there is a bankruptcy and they have value. The gift can be clawed back by the Official Receiver. OP would be rather foolish not to talk to the Official Receiver in the circumstances. The law is quite clear that such "gifts" can be reversed. Morality, messed up families, and opinions are totally irrelevant.

If there is not a bankruptcy, then that would be different. I'm only commenting on the position if there is.