To think that parents who don't vaccinate their children are despicable

[LaBelleSauvage]

Just that. And I think they ought to be sanctioned in some way similar to in Australia. Children shouldn't suffer because of parents' stupidity

It really isn’t. The quality of research is incredibly low. Peer review doesn’t have a standard meaning. Several studies have shown to be subject to fraud or mean very little in practice. I really should link you to a peer reviewed study....

Even funding is a fucking minefield.

The quality of many studies is in incredibly poor. Studies on vaccine safety are no different (hence the very valid concerns over the HPV vaccine safety checks).

People mock at people who “google” but I mock those who believe ever changing, evolving and biased, incompetent research as much.

Do academics and practitioners generally scrutinize the work of others if there’s no financial incentive or instruction to do so?

slate.com/health-and-science/2017/12/flaws-in-the-clinical-trials-for-gardasil-made-it-harder-to-properly-assess-safety.html

Do academics and practitioners generally scrutinize the work of others if there’s no financial incentive or instruction to do so?

Yes, Wilf. Take off the tinfoil hat and calm down.

There is never a middle ground here. There are polarised views and then a few folk like me, thinking vaccines are pretty good but worried there are too many, they aren’t properly tested, that adverse reactions aren’t reported properly for various reasons and wondering why immune disorders are increasing. There is no discussion to be had. It’s like bloody Brexit - both sides feel the other is some kind of lunatic idiot.

I genuinely don’t trust most research, I scrutinise new studies coming in terms of control groups, finding and funding. If my GP tells me something is safe it means fuck all to me until I do my research and that means reading the studies and working out which ones are worth reading. It’s a bloody minefield but i am absolutely certain that over vaccination is a thing in humans and animals and that it is catastrophic for a very small minority

And then have a look at the studies and research on cholesterol and bloody statins - all peer reviewed if you please and the whole thing is a fucking con. And you wonder why people don’t trust the official advice!! Would you like a statin with your skimmed milk?

I genuinely don’t trust most research, I scrutinise new studies coming in terms of control groups, finding and funding

Do you honestly think most anti-vax types are doing that...?

I brought DS2 straight from the GP who had phoned ahead, so although we were not in the main waiting area, there was no delay.

When I read the poster I was initially shocked because I remembered the time when DS1 (3yo at the time) woke in the early hours of the morning, vomited and came up in a rash that didn't pass the glass test. It took 17 minutes from him puking to us arriving at Children's A&E where he was triaged and taken immediately. I don't know how I would have dealt with any delay at that time. Let alone one that I could have avoided.

Also I'm not sure that this is just a NI thing. I'm not aware of any outbreaks of easily avoided through vaccination here. It is the main Children's hospital in the region, so maybe it's to do with that.

Most anti-vaxxers I know are highly intellient so very possibly!

I don’t really discuss this with them or anyone else so I genuinely don’t know.

Even the flu vaccine paperwork from schools is utterly misleading when you look at how successful it was last year and also the fact there is some shedding from the nasal vaccine. The leaflet really pisses me off to be honest as it treats people like cretins.

I genuinely don’t trust most research, I scrutinise new studies coming in terms of control groups, finding and funding. If my GP tells me something is safe it means fuck all to me until I do my research and that means reading the studies and working out which ones are worth reading.

I’m sorry to be blunt, but I don’t think you know what you’re talking about.

Even the flu vaccine paperwork from schools is utterly misleading when you look at how successful it was last year and also the fact there is some shedding from the nasal vaccine

I haven’t seen it so can’t comment on that.

I’ve only come into contact with a couple of anti-vaxxers. Intelligent they were not.

Why is that then?! Please tell me I’m wrong. Because once you delve in, it’s a mind fuck. And you won’t want to take a prescription medicine again unless you really, really have to.

Do academics and practitioners generally scrutinise the work of others of there's no financial incentive or instruction to do so?
Yes, that's exactly how research works
Jesus Christ there's some hard of understanding thick twats on this thread.

@polidori have I offended you in some way?
Academic institutions rely on funding, the more the better. They need this to stay open and they recruit staff and students with the intention of drawing as much funding as they can. There’s enormous pressure on academics to attract money (and plenty of it) towards their institution.
Lots of academics lie awake at night feeling physically sick at the pressure to drum up new projects that attract higher funding, their job security depending on it. It’s not the stuff of tinfoil hats.

Wilfred erm yeah.... That's kind of hiw academia works

• how

Calledyou I already only take drugs of any kind if I really have to. Overuse of antibiotics, for example, is a timebomb waiting to go off.
Vaccinations fall into the ‘really have to’ category as I quite liked my child with a pulse.

I've vaccinated my child but find this post and some of its posters so judgemental

Unvaccinated people are only 'fine' because they haven't come into contact with a deadly disease as it hasn't been able to spread through vaccinated people.
If everyone went unvaccinated these diseases would spread rapidly.
It's sad to see measles making a comeback in low vaccination areas.

It means that the research has been scrutinised in the public domain by academics and practitioners around the world.

YOU might mean that, I mean “show me a study that has been scrutinised by experts in the public domain”.

That isn't what "peer-review" means in the literature though.

It’s not ask a mate. What a ridiculous comment.

In practice it often is.

Decent studies are peer reviewed and its results can be reproduced, unlike Wakefield,

Yes, but truly "decent studies" are rarer than you think. Haven't you heard of publication bias, the replication crisis and John Ioannidis? And yes, bloody statins.

BUT, all these caveats apply double to anti-vaxx research.

I believe in some vaccinations but I don’t believe the increase in them over the years is a good thing. I can’t get my head around the Heppatitis B vaccination for babies. This link Does My Child Need To Be Vaccinated doesn’t show one reason for a baby to be vaccinated at birth. I can’t see any reason to add to the ever increasing amount of vaccinations given to babies with I believe unnecessary vaccinations.

I am also amazed at the amount of ignorance regarding Whooping Cough. Parents and other adults are more likely to pass on Whooping Cough to their babies yet most adults are not vaccinated. It makes me uneasy to see babies out in public at such a young age with all those unvaccinated adults wanting a cuddle.

I think more thought about spreading out vaccinations and possibly not all vaccinations are necessary. Do some research, look at the forums of people who have children damaged by vaccinations. The HPV forums for instance. Calling people morons because they are concerned and know babies and children can be damaged by vaccinations and don’t believe everything Pharmaceutical companies have to say. A simple search of pharmaceutical companies fined billions You can read the court documents if you look for them.

People do more research on goods they are about to buy than they do on what chemicals they allow to be put in their children’s bodies.

Calling people morons is something people do when they don't have any arguments. Informed people give arguments.

Personally I have very little faith in the pharmaceutical industry and always double check any medicine I am prescribed.

Some children do get vaccine-damaged, that is why every country has a fund to pay out compensation. Anecdotally the unvaccinated children I know have much better immune systems than their peers. But AFAIK, no studies have been done on this.

Thanks for that valuable input.

Or, sometimes people behave in ways so indefensible that they are rightly labelled despicable, moronic, selfish, free loading etc. Being an anti-vaxxer is one of those ways. But there are others.

You cannot possibly know the state of a child’s immune system. That ‘anecdote’ isn’t even an anecdote.

We are solid vaxxers, all of our children are vaccinated and DH and I strongly believe 100% that it is our social duty. I have worked alongside some autoimmune compromised families, and as an autism mum, it's a debate we regularly seem to be asked our thoughts on.

That said, the way I found to change the anti-vaxxers movement is definitely to call them some of the things that this thread has listed, rather than discuss the conspiracy theories and carefully discuss their concerns.

Yup.

Insults and name calling definitely works, and will lead us all to progressive change.