To think that parents who don't vaccinate their children are despicable

[LaBelleSauvage]

Just that. And I think they ought to be sanctioned in some way similar to in Australia. Children shouldn't suffer because of parents' stupidity

kisser calling people “moronic” and “despicable” makesyou sounds immature and silly. Which I’m sure you are not!

To a PP - it’s impossible morally or practically to find a decent control group of entirely unvaccinated people hence those studies cannot be done.

By the way and completely coincidentally and anecdotally (!)?m, another thread I’m posting on relates to a mother of a nearly bed ridden teen possibly related to the HPV vaccine. Utterly denied by medical practitioners. Exactly the same symptoms as the hundreds of girls worldwide alleging vaccine damage. Same as the report above about insufficient safety testing.

It’s a whitewash and an outrage. And that is what I call descipabkr!

I had measles when I was 16. It was truly horrific. Vaccinate your damn children. There is a reason these diseases are not around much anymore. Shocker as it is because of vaccinations. You know.... all these years of scientific research that has happened. And some uneducated person comes along reads a few articles on the internet and claims to understand it enough to choose not to. And it all starts up again. Ffs

@Charron

Babies should be vaccinated against hepatitis B because it is a much more serious disease in childhood than in adulthood.
Link : www.nhs.uk/conditions/hepatitis-b/

If we are relying on anecdotal evidence, My kids have had all their vaccines and we paid for them to be vaccinated against chickenpox as well. None of them have had a day of sick from school since they started. When 3/4 of their classes were off with chickenpox mine were at school getting an education. All healthy, I know some people think it’s not proper immunity unless you’ve actually experienced the disease, my father included. But you know what they’ve played with their cousin who was topless, covered in oozing spots and still didn’t catch it. So they are definitely immune. All I know is it was the best £700 we spent so our 3 kids never have to suffer chickenpox and hopefully shingles. And yes they’ve had the booster. Oh and did you know not everyone who catches chickenpox develops immunity (before someone comes on to say their immunity may fail)

We also get the flu vaccine every year, of course some years are more effective than others because it’s a bit of a best guess as to which strains will be active that year. But a bit of a sore arm and feeling a bit lethargic for a week is preferable to flu.

Very at the 'how dare you criticise' my mum guff. I think this is the next wave of anti-vax propaganda starting from very young adults who haven't really fully questioned their childhood or parents yet.

Yanbu op, morally the parents of healthy children should have them vaccinated to protect others. It's not just about your bubs.

That said, the way I found to change the anti-vaxxers movement is definitely to call them some of the things that this thread has listed, rather than discuss the conspiracy theories and carefully discuss their concerns.

People whose minds can be changed by sensible discussion aren’t anti-vaxxers, they’re normal, hesitant parents.

Anti-vaxxers- those who bang on about absolute personal freedoms, vaccine efficacy being a myth, millions of unrecorded casualties, how they personally know loads of vaccine damaged children, dangerous ‘chemicals’ in vaccines etc etc - are part of a quasi-cult.

They are either knaves or fools and cannot be reasoned with.

People whose minds can be changed by sensible discussion aren’t anti-vaxxers, they’re normal, hesitant parents.

Anti-vaxxers- those who bang on about absolute personal freedoms, vaccine efficacy being a myth, millions of unrecorded casualties, how they personally know loads of vaccine damaged children, dangerous ‘chemicals’ in vaccines etc etc - are part of a quasi-cult.

They are either knaves or fools and cannot be reasoned with.

This. ^^

There is no reasoning with people who say well my parents didn't give me vaccinations and I turned out ok. I didn't get ill. And grandad told dad that one day when he was down the pub Timmy's uncle Bob said he had heard that a child spouted a 3rd head and turned purple when his mum got him vaccinated. That was it for our family. We don't do vaccinations. Never will.

morally the parents of healthy children should have them vaccinated to protect others. It's not just about your bubs

I've said this before, but the fact that vaccine damage legislation exists is a bit of a clue that vaccines are not risk-free. Therefore, I disagree totally that parents should have their kids vaccinated to protect others. If yours is the child that suffers horrible side effects, it's not much consolation that most don't - I don't know any who have been. But I don't know anyone who is immuno compromised either, although I do know people with allergies who weren't eg vaccinated against rubella when I was.

With some diseases it's an absolute no-brainer to vaccinate as far as I am concerned: eg meningitis or polio. Risk or no risk.

Flu? Not sure - some years it's not that effective anyway. I've never had a flu vaccine.

Chicken pox? I'll go with the NHS view. Neither me nor my son missed any school as we both had it when we were under 5. DH got it when he was 25 but said it wasn't that bad in his case. One of the reasons kids were having bad side effects from chicken pox was because they were being given ibuprofen to get their temperatures down - hopefully people know not to do that with chicken pox now.

A lot of MNers are simply too black or white on this as well as other topics and the arguments are often more nuanced.

My GP spoke to me honestly and frankly about the safety of vaccinations and the risks. Based on that conversation I had mine vaccinated. If she had been dismissive, rude, told me I was being silly and my concerns were all unfounded I might have made a different decision.

This is what many pro-vaxxers don't seem to understand. If someone is genuinely concerned about vaccine safety and has hesitated to vaccinate their child then they need to be helped to understand the benefits using calm, non accusatory, rational language. Time and time again I've read threads where an worried OP who hasn't yet vaccinated their child asks for help and advice and the responses are always along the lines of
"Just vaccinate you selfish idiot"
"Would you rather see your child dead than autistic? (often when the OP has made no mention of autism)
"My husband's cousin's brother' got measles and is now deaf.."
"I hate people like you OP, you put my sick child in danger"
...etc.

The OP understandably does not return to the thread and chances are will do their own 'research' and fall prey to the anti-vaxx bullshit websites.

Why on earth do people think those kinds of aggressive replies help? I understand the anger towards someone who refuses to vaccinate a healthy child but oftentimes it is simply due to misinformation so rather than adopting a superior, 'why are you such a fucking idiot' it just might be better to reply in a reasoned tone.

If you are too angry to do that then just don't reply.

I’m a children’s nurse working with the 0-2 year age group and over the last 5 years in particular we are seeing whooping cough, measles and even some TB.

In the last two years we have had four newborn babies due from whooping cough.

During our admission paperwork we have to ask parents if their children are vaccinated and although 99% of them are we do have children admitted who aren’t.

These children aren’t isolated and I don’t know what worries me more: that they are on a ward with children with potentially dangerous infections and they aren’t protected, or the fact that unvaccinated infants/toddlers are nursed alongside other young and vulnerable unvaccinated babies and the risk they may pose to others.

Eastie if someone is seriously coming on MN to find out whether to vaccinate then there’s no real help for them.

People on MN could be anyone?!

I’m not angry at all. I’m fairly resigned to the inherent foolishness of people

I've said this before, but the fact that vaccine damage legislation exists is a bit of a clue that vaccines are not risk-free.

Vaccine damage payment schemes were introduced as replacements for claims at law in many countries to prevent co-ordinated and contrived litigation because courts (and in the US especially, juries) were giving massive, undeserved damages to parents and were discouraging manufacturers.

Vaccines are very, very safe. Nothing - not off the shelf pain killers, antibiotics or other common medicines - is risk free.

@JacquesHammer do you realise there are parents who might be isolated, poorly educated, surrounded by family members who are anti-vaxxers and feel genuinely confused? They ask a question on MN about vaccine safety and your response is they are beyond help so there's no point engaging with them? Ok

satsuma, Nobody is claiming they're 100% risk-free.
Occasionally there is a terrible news story about a bus or something mounting the pavement and killing pedestrians. Choosing the pavement instead of the road is not 100% risk-free. I imagine you don't tell your children to walk along the middle of the road in the grounds that those news stories prove that pavements are unsafe?

Time and time again I've read threads where an worried OP who hasn't yet vaccinated their child asks for help and advice...

I haven’t. Time and time again I’ve read threads started by people who say they’re unsure about vaccination and who go on to display a remarkable knowledge of anti-vaxx bullshit ‘facts’. The very few OPs who do seem genuinely in need of calm discussion get it.

Nearly all vaccine questioning on the internet is the work of dedicated anti-vaxxers. Why shouldn’t those people be given the (figurative) mark of Cain?

do you realise there are parents who might be isolated, poorly educated, surrounded by family members who are anti-vaxxers and feel genuinely confused? They ask a question on MN about vaccine safety and your response is they are beyond help so there's no point engaging with them

There’s some fantastic mental gymnastics there

IF said poster as you described asked that question I would say “I would really advise speaking to your GP about your concerns”.

But yes, it’s totallt fruitless engaging with the “I’m not vaccinated and I’m ok” brigade because as evidenced earlier in the thread.

@KissingInTheRain - 100% agree. There is a difference between a parent who hesitates due to safety concerns (that was me) and an anti vaxxer. The former can be reasoned with and talked round (as I was), the latter cannot because they are illogical and lack common sense.

The problem on MN is that the two groups are often treated in the same way. Ask a question about a vaccine? Well you must be condemned and hounded off the boards because you are a bloody fool and conspiracy theorist.

No drug, no medical treatment, no activity is risk free is it?

I have yet to see anyone claim that any vaccine is 100% safe and for any parent of a child damaged by vaccine I can't imagine how that feels.

But all of us every day do things that have a risk attached. Making a journey in a car must be statistically more dangerous than having a vaccine and yet I bet that the anti vaxxers drive their children around.

Not vaccinating your child risks the lives of others. At the very least the onus is on you to make sure that you don't endanger others.

Wow!! What a sad view of humanity this thread is Some really viscious and angry posting.

If peope choose to vaccinate or not to vaccinate, they are not doing it as a personal attck on you OP, or on anyone else. It's about their decision to protect their children. As it happens, my decision is to vaccinate as I believe it will protect them and others they come in contact with. But I know other people who don't vaccinate and I get their reasons because we've talked about it.

Attacking people does not make them change, it makes them defend their position more and more strongly, the more they are attcked. If people on here genuinely want others to change their behaviour, try understanding it first, not judging, not shouting down.

This thread and the OP especially, is so depressing :(

I have vaccinated my children despite my eldest having a reaction at 8 weeks and needing all the subsequent ones needing to be separate and with piriton.
And 3 of my vaccinated children catching whooping cough and one of them still has lung issues 5 years later. Whooping cough is awful and dangerous and one of the worst things we have been through as a family. People flippantly comment it would’ve been milder because they’d been vaccinated but one was ill for 17 weeks and another for 26, and had lung damage. I caught it. The biggest problems was gp’s not recognising it as they do not see it very often.

If peope choose to vaccinate or not to vaccinate, they are not doing it as a personal attck on you OP, or on anyone else.

It is a literal attack on some of us though. Those of us for whom contracting these illnesses could be fatal.

I work in a public facing role. Although I have had chicken pox I have lost my immunity due to immunosuporessants. A while ago I was talking to a mum and daughter. Child was passing me things and taking things from me. A friend comes over and chats to the mum who instructs the daughter to lift up her top - she is covered in chicken pox that apparently came out that morning. Cue me having to race off to phone my nurse at the hospital to find out what to do.

How in any way is that acceptable? My life was put in danger because of that thoughtless incident.

That is what I worry about now every day - measles, mumps and whooping cough is on the rise near here. Should I give up work and lock myself away?

I've said this before, but the fact that vaccine damage legislation exists is a bit of a clue that vaccines are not risk-free. Therefore, I disagree totally that parents should have their kids vaccinated to protect others. If yours is the child that suffers horrible side effects, it's not much consolation that most don't - I don't know any who have been. But I don't know anyone who is immuno compromised either, although I do know people with allergies who weren't eg vaccinated against rubella when I was.

Where do I say that I think that vaccines are entirely risk free? But I stand by my point, parents of healthy children should have them vaccinated morally. That is my opinion.

But I don't know anyone who is immuno compromised either,

So you don't know any pregnant women, babies too young to be vaccinated, toddlers too young for the MMR, anyone having treatment for cancer or any old people?

Plus how do you know that the person next to you on the bus, or in the cinema or serving you in a shop isn't immunocompromised? (see my post above)

The other interesting thing is that as far as I know in real life I don't know anyone who didn't have their children vaccinated. It's a bit of a 'only on MN' thing for me. One mum I knows daughter had mumps despite having had her MMR and her mum was going around telling everyone she'd been vaccinated, she was mortified......