To think that parents who don't vaccinate their children are despicable

[LaBelleSauvage]

Just that. And I think they ought to be sanctioned in some way similar to in Australia. Children shouldn't suffer because of parents' stupidity

Yes polidori that's absolutely true. I don't dispute that at all.

Um, Wilfred, do you think the earth is flat or that the moon landings were faked?

But in my experience, In some European countries where alternative medicine is perhaps more mainstream , there are more open platforms for debate around issues such as birth, death, vaccination. So these tend to draw a wide, varied audience.

@ KissingInTheRain
No , and all my children are vaccinated up to their eyeballs 😀
But I can’t imagine ever calling another parent an ‘idiot’ or ‘a knob’
for not vaccinating. I found it a tough decision. I’m sure I’m not the only one.

Iirc there is some evidence base for the risks of jabs but small risks and you have to weigh up the bigger ones which is widespread disease and death!!

Everyone is entitled to make an informed choice but when I attempted to research this issue it was very hard to find balanced info. Pro vax is the majority view and anti vax are all about Amber beads and other quackery

What debates do these enlightened folk have about birth and death? Are they pro-birth and anti-death? Or some other permutation?

And is flat earth theory discussed more on the Continent?

This is a real eye-opener.

The legacy of Wakefield is strong though. My exp was very very sucked into that but he just paid for separate jabs so no ha done

And absolutely I cannot refer you to peer reviewed papers. Not one.
I’m talking about events I was at entirely accidentally, more than ten years ago. I wasn’t there in the capacity of pro/anti vax (actually I was working on a project with another speaker who had zilch to do with vaccines).

Part of the problem is that people are reluctant to discuss the genuine risks of vaccines.

When my twins were born I was young, and my ex was absolutely adamant he didn't want them to have the MMR. Anytime I tried to research it you could either find "It's 100% safe" or "It's going to give your kids autism". Trying to find anything in the middle was difficult, especially when ex's niece did react very, very badly to a vaccination.

Mine had single vaccines in the end, which I now bitterly regret. A very kindly friend, who realised I was an unconfident parent surrounded by very loud, opinionated people, gave me the actual stats on how many children react badly to vaccinations.

It meant that when it came to my next child I happily allowed them the vaccinations because I'd seen actual facts about the statistics that acknowledged that some, a very very small number, children do react badly, but a considerably larger number don't.

Just shouting at people and calling them stupid doesn't do anything except make them feel defensive. When you are surrounded by people harping on about the dangers it's not helpful to say there are none. Better to educate people on the actual statistics than justyell at them.

@kissingintherain
What I mean is
Possibly in some places, alternative methods of healthcare are incorporated into general practice more than here (so perhaps alternative practitioners, naturopathic medicine etc, have more of ‘voice’ in public debate ) Or the homebirth rate is higher, or death is spoken about in a more open manner.

I also think that if individual children do not fall into those groups and their parents still refuse to vaccinate them then GPS and hospitals etc should have the right to ban them from waiting rooms.

They are in my local paediatric A&E which requests that if your children have not been vaccinated you phone ahead instead of just turning up. It is one of the first questions asked by the receptionists. Non vaccinated children are kept out of the waiting room, away from the toys and may face delays in treatment until a member of staff is deemed safe enough to see them.

Are those parents who choose not to vaccinate, OK with delaying treatment for their children at A&E?

Dione - where do you live? I have never heard of a UK paediatric A&E delaying treatment for a child based in on their vaccination status, children kept in separate rooms and staff kept away until it is 'deemed safe' for them to go near an unvaccinated child. I'm pro vaccination but this doesn't make sense when there are children who who are not vaccinated on medical grounds.Are such children also kept in isolation?

On purely ethical grounds it seems unbelievable that medical professionals would delay treating a child because of the decisions a parent has made.

I'm in NI. I was in paediatric A&E earlier this year with new baby when I read the poster. I was initially a bit WTF? But when I thought about it, it did make sense. It's not that treatment is being deliberately delayed because of the decisions a parent has made.

It is about keeping the other children attending the children's hospital safe.

I know so because my dh works in medical publishing. Not the Lancet fortunately which published Wakefield.
Many many studies are available on the safety of vaccines. And no you won’t find credible scientists on the anti vaccine side.

I'm not a parent but can someone tell me, is it illegal for parents not to vaccinate in the UK? I always thought it was compulsory.

Also what are some of the reasons why people do not vaccinate?

Mrskeats , is the world of medical research and publishing entirely unbiased? How is the academic research funded?
These are serious questions, not intended in a twattish way.

I'm sure there's a specific 'doctor' that the anti vax crew all follow.

I delayed but I'm not anti vax it's not the same thing

Dr sears maybe?

Actually research quality is incredibly low - it’s a very good question. The term “peer reviewed” is handed around on here like some platinum badge but it really means “ask a mate”. Funding matters hugely and - surprise - results are often favourable to the organisation funding. Sometimes key results are skewed.

I think to question vaccination status on arrival to A&e/gp (especially gp) is fairly reasonable, given that a high proportion of service users at these points (In my experience) seem to be parents of very young babies, or the elderly. Not really ethical to delay treatment as some sort of punishment , but certainly a separate room /space would make sense if there was one available.

The term “peer reviewed” is handed around on here like some platinum badge but it really means “ask a mate”
It means no such thing!!
It means that the research has been scrutinised in the public domain by academics and practitioners around the world.

Decent studies are peer reviewed and its results can be reproduced, unlike Wakefield,
It’s not ask a mate. What a ridiculous comment.

The term “peer reviewed” is handed around on here like some platinum badge but it really means “ask a mate”

YOU might mean that, I mean “show me a study that has been scrutinised by experts in the public domain”.

HTH

@ Tellem2
It is legal in the Uk not to vaccinate your children.
However. The nhs do not always fund delayed vaccinations, so some may have to be given privately if you do not adhere to the schedule. (If you change your mind )
Hugely expensive to have them privately, and sometimes issues with availability.
People don’t vaccinate for all sorts of reasons.
Some people have concerns about ingredients, efficacy, possible side effects, effects on long term health. Some people are allergic to ingredients, others have immune issues. Some children may have had an adverse reaction to an earlier vaccine.
Lots of us haven’t had to see the horror of these diseases in our lifetime, so it can be difficult to put the whole thing into perspective.
And because the rates of measles etc, have been comparatively low in recent years, it’s also easy to forget that lasting damage these illnesses can cause. So hearing loss, vision loss , nerve damage, and so on.

Ok, didn't realise this was the case in NI.

I'm not medically trained but I still can't see how this works in practice , i.e. at what point and how will a member of staff be deemed 'safe enough' to deal with an unvaccinated child.

Anyway, my main point is if a child is unvaccinated because they are immuno compromised or not old enough to receive a certain jab I can only hope they are not subject to delays in receiving treatment due to a situation entirely beyond their control.