AIBU .... to open a transgender discussion thread for respectful debate !

[wrexhamtrans]

For the last couple of days I enjoyed a great discussion over transgender rights on a thread that has now closed. Despite over 1000 posts it was on the whole very respectful and insightful.

So let's have something new.... let's have a thread started by myself, a transsexual woman where we can have a healthy dialog. No TRA agenda, no erasure, no abuse or disrespect......

To kick things off I'd like to pick up on a comment made on a previous thread.
I fully accept many other women, who would previously allowed this [transgender women in women's spaces], now wouldn't because "we gave an inch and they stole a mile"

In the past there existed generally a happy coexistence between transsexual women and women.

Unfortunately the goalposts moved and we now have this broad umbrella of transgenderism which I will be the first to say is completely ridiculous. It is this new label that campaigns for cross dressers rights and acceptance of those who are sexual motivated. And of course self id is a dangerous and foolish idea.

Please remember there is still a quiet minority of transsexual women who do want to live their life in peace and who are as much against this as any woman. These TRAs do not represent me.

Being a woman for me is who I am. It's how society sees me because it cannot accept the way I am as permissible as a man. I am castrated and hormonally transitioned and awaiting surgery. I live every day as a woman and i am treated as one in many ways including misogyny, oppressed by male privilege, sexualisation....For some transition was the only way to have a life.

Those who cross dress and are sexual motivated are making a choice. Those with gender dysphoria are not.

There needs to be compromise on both sides, probably more so on the TRA side.
As transsexual I would like to have seen the following...

1. No self id. All those identifying as women to be psychologically evaluated and screened. Gender Dysphoria is no joke.
2. Any rights given to trans women go to dysphoric transsexual women who are in physical transition. No rights at all to other groups eg cross dressers....in other words is transsexual rights not transgender rights.
3. Access to some women's spaces permitted after X months of HRT and testosterone blocking therapy ie when Oestrogen and Testosterone levels are that of a natal female.

Unfortunately I think too much has been conceded already to revert.
I am fed up having my identity hijacked and turned into something it's not. I wouldn't wish gender dysphoria on my worst enemy. People with GD are damaged people who struggle considerably with gender identity and face daily abuse, ridicule and violence.

I absolutely do believe it is possible to born in the wrong body.....to have a brain chemistry of one gender and a body of another. Indeed we know of one generic condition called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome which does exactly that. The idea though that it's ok to mix this up with sexual fetishism is sooooo wrong.

Can you think of any other medical condition where it would be accepted for someone else to claim that condition because they like to pretend they have it ? If I applied to the Council for a Blue Badge because it turns me on to sometimes pretend I am disabled I would be told, rightly so, where to go. Why oh why would the Government capitulate that with gender dysphoria ? You were born in the wrong body, have significant mental health issues ? Yes, we will help you. You like to pretend you are a woman because it turns you on ? Of course, jump in there too.....

Most people use a mixture of appearance, sounds and smells to identity people as male or females. My suspicion is it’s pretty easy because of the underlying biological requirement for species propagation

But eresh all those other men, they don't want to get into women's spaces so they are not the same at all. They are oppositional to you in that respect.
So,no, not the same.

Sorry I'm not clear what you mean or which post you're replying to of mine?

You are either a woman, as in the dictionary definition, or you're not.

and humans can't change sex.

Really? No middle aged woman has ever come out as a transman? Can you evidence that?

That bit stood out to me too. Middle aged women don't come out as transmen? What, ever? Surely there's at least one.

I think that the homophobes back then though justified their hatred by citing perceived detriment.

So do you not think opening up women's space to any man who says he's a woman will be detrimental to women and girls?

Should women and girls have the right to a single-sex space when they are vulnerable or naked?

This is the heart of the matter. Ignore the noise.

Should women and girls have the right to a single-sex space when they are vulnerable or naked?

If they want it then yes of course they should have it. I actually think all communal changing rooms should be abolished. Make them all cubicles only. As a woman I hate changing in communal changing rooms. I don't like the way some women flaunt being naked in front of me and so I avoid using the changing rooms at my gym because of it. Is that fair to me? I'd like my choice for privacy to be recognised too.

That bit stood out to me too. Middle aged women don't come out as transmen? What, ever? Surely there's at least one.

I have a friend who became a trans man in middle age, they were sexually abused as a child and always struggled with their mental health, and still do, but the stats I've seen in the past do not indicate it's common.

Dunno if im 'ilk' now

Or racist transphobic homophobic

At least its making a change from the 'ics'

Though i suppose racist did that

Very happy to respect your boundaries, Weetabix.

Middle aged women don't come out as transmen? What, ever? Surely there's at least one.

Here's someone; Ramses transitioned in his late 40s://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/nov/17/age-nothing-do-with-it-transition-later-life-transgender

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/nov/17/age-nothing-do-with-it-transition-later-life-transgender

So are you agreeing that there is no difference other than biology, weetabix?

No I'm not because not all women share the same biology, but are still women and I am more than just a sum of my (lady) parts.

As I said, how do people day to day recognise that I am a woman? What do I "do" to be a woman that a transwoman can't "do"?

So do you not think opening up women's space to any man who says he's a woman will be detrimental to women and girls?

People have said on here including me that they are against self ID, so yes, opening up any space to any man who says he's a woman on a Friday for example wouldn't be a good thing.
No to that.
Although people are NOT OK (well, I'm not anyway, I don't speak for anyone else) with dismissing all transwomen as men and saying go away to them.

No I'm not because not all women share the same biology, but are still women

But they are female.

Dunno if im 'ilk' now

Noo, you seem nice and middle of the road and listening to both sides, you're not an ilk lol

Most people use a mixture of appearance, sounds and smells to identity people as male or females.

What do men and women smell like?

Honestly I only ever smell perfume or aftershave or sometimes BO but then that smells the same to me whether on a man or a woman.

I’ve come to the conclusion that you’re only womaning right if you’re the correct type of woman that denies the existnace of any other woman that didn’t become a woman in the same way you became a woman and any woman that accepts other woman as a type of different woman are not real woman, they are either pretending to be a woman or they hate woman.

Seems like a sort of dictatorship to me, but what do I know... I can’t even woman right

Is that a thing, come onto a thread to tell women you are female.

This is just word-play.
Yes, women are female, female humans are called women

People have said on here including me that they are against self ID, so yes, opening up any space to any man who says he's a woman on a Friday for example wouldn't be a good thing.
No to that.
Although people are NOT OK (well, I'm not anyway, I don't speak for anyone else) with dismissing all transwomen as men and saying go away to them.
^^ yes yes to this. Perfectly put.

What do men and women smell like?

Honestly I only ever smell perfume or aftershave or sometimes BO but then that smells the same to me whether on a man or a woman.

I may have no sense of internal male or femaleness but this I can relate to, BO has a definite male or female smell to me.

You absolutely can woman right its themz that's got womaning all wrong

Completely agree EarlyWalker

We are clearly the wrong type of women because we aren't following team orders.

If they want it then yes of course they should have it.

So you also agree - no transwomen in women's prisons or women's refuges? No transwomen providing medical care when a female doctor or nurse has been requested? Nice to have some agreement.

That bit stood out to me too. Middle aged women don't come out as transmen? What, ever? Surely there's at least one

This recent interview is worth reading and considering seriously,
some pertinent points:

"After undergoing years of counselling, he says he has finally discovered he wasn't transgender. Instead, he says, he was a woman suffering with horrific complex PTSD after years of sexual abuse.

"Looking back now I realise that it was simply a feeling that if I didn't have a vagina, I couldn't be raped," he revealed.

"I feel completely 'mutilated'," he added."

He says he should never have been allowed to transition, claiming sexual abuse sparked his dissatisfaction with his female body.

He alleges his father raped and abused him when he was a teenager, but died five years ago, before he could be charged.

Now, he looks in the mirror "through the eyes of that terrified 15-year-old girl and see this funny little man staring back at me".

"The thing with objectum sexuality is they are addictions and I felt compelled to have them," he recalled.

"Looking back it was just a way of coping with the trauma."

Lee tied the knot with Alan in December 1997. But his self-loathing became so extreme he almost cut off his breasts with kitchen scissors.

It was in 2002 that he first heard of transgender and gender reassignment surgery while watching an episode of the chat show Kilroy in his living room.

"The programme was introduced as a 'special' where transgender men and women were on," he said.

"At the time it was a state of mind no body really spoke about.

"I remember seeing them on the TV and thinking 'that's me!'

"I suppose they seemed confident in themselves and seemed accepted.

He has spoken out on the 'taboo' subject of gender reassignment reversal to encourage others to seek talking therapy before surgery."

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/im-still-debbie-man-reveals-13532989

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3414138-Im-not-meant-to-be-a-bloke-Woman-who-changed-gender-to-become-man-called-Lee-says-sex-swap-was-a-huge-mistake

male pronouns likely used due to IPSO guidelines