AIBU .... to open a transgender discussion thread for respectful debate !

[wrexhamtrans]

For the last couple of days I enjoyed a great discussion over transgender rights on a thread that has now closed. Despite over 1000 posts it was on the whole very respectful and insightful.

So let's have something new.... let's have a thread started by myself, a transsexual woman where we can have a healthy dialog. No TRA agenda, no erasure, no abuse or disrespect......

To kick things off I'd like to pick up on a comment made on a previous thread.
I fully accept many other women, who would previously allowed this [transgender women in women's spaces], now wouldn't because "we gave an inch and they stole a mile"

In the past there existed generally a happy coexistence between transsexual women and women.

Unfortunately the goalposts moved and we now have this broad umbrella of transgenderism which I will be the first to say is completely ridiculous. It is this new label that campaigns for cross dressers rights and acceptance of those who are sexual motivated. And of course self id is a dangerous and foolish idea.

Please remember there is still a quiet minority of transsexual women who do want to live their life in peace and who are as much against this as any woman. These TRAs do not represent me.

Being a woman for me is who I am. It's how society sees me because it cannot accept the way I am as permissible as a man. I am castrated and hormonally transitioned and awaiting surgery. I live every day as a woman and i am treated as one in many ways including misogyny, oppressed by male privilege, sexualisation....For some transition was the only way to have a life.

Those who cross dress and are sexual motivated are making a choice. Those with gender dysphoria are not.

There needs to be compromise on both sides, probably more so on the TRA side.
As transsexual I would like to have seen the following...

1. No self id. All those identifying as women to be psychologically evaluated and screened. Gender Dysphoria is no joke.
2. Any rights given to trans women go to dysphoric transsexual women who are in physical transition. No rights at all to other groups eg cross dressers....in other words is transsexual rights not transgender rights.
3. Access to some women's spaces permitted after X months of HRT and testosterone blocking therapy ie when Oestrogen and Testosterone levels are that of a natal female.

Unfortunately I think too much has been conceded already to revert.
I am fed up having my identity hijacked and turned into something it's not. I wouldn't wish gender dysphoria on my worst enemy. People with GD are damaged people who struggle considerably with gender identity and face daily abuse, ridicule and violence.

I absolutely do believe it is possible to born in the wrong body.....to have a brain chemistry of one gender and a body of another. Indeed we know of one generic condition called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome which does exactly that. The idea though that it's ok to mix this up with sexual fetishism is sooooo wrong.

Can you think of any other medical condition where it would be accepted for someone else to claim that condition because they like to pretend they have it ? If I applied to the Council for a Blue Badge because it turns me on to sometimes pretend I am disabled I would be told, rightly so, where to go. Why oh why would the Government capitulate that with gender dysphoria ? You were born in the wrong body, have significant mental health issues ? Yes, we will help you. You like to pretend you are a woman because it turns you on ? Of course, jump in there too.....

Also disagree with male and female bo smelling the same. It doesnt, particularly that of the pant/ie region. Completely different.
You can't smell like a man and call yourself a woman.

What do men and women smell like?

I want to know that myself! I never wear perfume, am I supposed to smell pretty and floral to be a woman right?
Today I smell like a builder's bum (not like I'd know what that smells like)
as I need a bath lol.

To take that a step further, men and women have different pheromones, and their pee smells different too.
I can't believe I'm on a thread having to state the obvious.

Why?!

No I'm not because not all women share the same biology, but are still women and I am more than just a sum of my (lady) parts.

As I said, how do people day to day recognise that I am a woman? What do I "do" to be a woman that a transwoman can't "do"?

So what is it about a trans woman's way of womaning that means they need to use the female toilets?

You can't smell like a man and call yourself a woman.

Not disagreeing but I have never noticed this. If however there is a difference would imagine it's caused by hormonal differences. Change the balance of hormones and I would guess that body odour changes accordingly.

Smell is the most interesting and modern perfumes can easily obscure it. From what I recall, Often it is only subconsciously recognised ( although I can sometimes tell who is On their period by smell) . I think that sensing hormones is actually one way people tell if someone fancies them.

You don’t do anyth8ng to be woman. You just are.

Rowantrees that's all well and good what you wrote, but what has it got to do with what you quoted?
Which was That bit stood out to me too. Middle aged women don't come out as transmen? What, ever? Surely there's at least one

If however there is a difference would imagine it's caused by hormonal differences. Change the balance of hormones and I would guess that body odour changes accordingly

Good point

( although I can sometimes tell who is On their period by smell

Heck, that's some skill, impressive nose skills there lol

VerbeenaBeeks

The article is about a woman who came out as a transman in middle age as per the quote.

"A man who underwent a sex change 15 years ago has revealed it was "the greatest mistake", saying: "I'm a woman, I'm still Debbie."

Lee Harries, from Hemel Hempstead, Hertfordshire, transitioned from female to male after years of struggling with his sexual identity.

Born a girl called Debbie Karemer, he asked for gender reassignment aged 44 and subsequently underwent private testosterone treatment.

He later had his breasts, uterus, ovaries and fallopian tubes removed, before surgeons created a penis using fat and skin from his arm."

So what is it about a trans woman's way of womaning that means they need to use the female toilets?

The only way that I can describe my thoughts is by relating it to appearance, social convention and also personal identity.

If I, as a woman, observed someone that I recognised as male in the ladies toilet I would point out that they were in the wrong place. It would seem "wrong" for someone physically appearing as a woman to be forced to use the men's. That is pointing out to everyone that they are different, that they are different.

Men are provided with urinals not because of their gender identity but because of their anatomy. Urinals are not provided in the ladies because women don't have penises.

Tbh I sometimes have difficulty in coming to terms with the total batshit insanity of this shit.

We all know there are two sexes. We all know what a woman is. We came out of one. And we all know that men, as a class, present a danger to women and girls when they are naked or otherwise vulnerable.

This is why all the aid agencies prioritize sex segregation where women and girls wash and relieve themselves.

And yet we're being asked to prioritize gender identity (which is entirely subjective and cannot be tested for) over the basic dick/vadge separation.

No. Just no. This ideology has made a lot of headway, typically by operating under most people's radar. But I don't think it will last. Because it's nonsense.

Separating what are currently sex segregated facilities by gender identity makes no more sense than doing so by star sign or musical taste.

The article is about a woman who came out as a transman in middle age as per the quote

That's just one person, though. Not all of them.
And shows contrary to the other poster saying that middle aged women do not come out as transmen, it shows that yes, actually they do.

Men are provided with urinals not because of their gender identity but because of their anatomy. Urinals are not provided in the ladies because women don't have penises.

So a transwoman that has full surgery can't use a urinal as they don't have a penis. They don't need to use a toilet that has a urinal then do they?

I also have 2 males at home. We don't have urinal. Surprisingly they can use a toilet.

It would seem "wrong" for someone physically appearing as a woman to be forced to use the men's. That is pointing out to everyone that they are different, that they are different.

But there's nothing wrong with being different. Isn't that the whole point of understanding and accepting people as they are?

Toilets, sports etc are segregated because of biological reasons, not personality or presentation reasons.

As I said, how do people day to day recognise that I am a woman? What do I "do" to be a woman that a transwoman can't "do"?

Is that a serious question? I don't believe that you can't see the difference between men and women. We have evolved to recognise the sexes, because our survival literally depends on it.

But there's nothing wrong with being different. Isn't that the whole point of understanding and accepting people as they are?

That sums up what is wrong with genderism. We can accept transgender people as they are, as transwomen and transmen. We shouldn't have to accept them as what they are not - transwomen are not women and transmen are not men.

But there's nothing wrong with being different.

Do you know what? I'm different. I have a disability that isn't always obvious, only if I have to do certain things. I hate if people comment on it, offer to help, try to make allowances for me or change arrangements to accommodate me. I hate it when my manager at work tries to help me but actually calls attention to my difference.

I don't want to be different. I don't want to advertise it and I certainly don't want to celebrate it. I want to go unnoticed. I want to blend in. I don't want to be the freak show so that others can marvel at my "differences".

That's just me though. I wish people would respect that for me so I will respect it of others.

And shows contrary to the other poster saying that middle aged women do not come out as transmen, it shows that yes, actually they do.

But not in such great numbers. Men who transition late in life are often heterosexual and are married and have fathered children. See the trans widows thread for evidence of that. Where are the trans widowers?

That's just one person, though. Not all of them.
And shows contrary to the other poster saying that middle aged women do not come out as transmen, it shows that yes, actually they do.

Yes exactly, I was providing a link to a recent interview with a woman who came out as a transman in middle age.

As I commented, I thought her voice and experience worth listening to and considering hence why I shared it here.

Your responses are a bit knee-jerk VerbeenaBeeks

So a transwoman that has full surgery can't use a urinal as they don't have a penis. They don't need to use a toilet that has a urinal then do they?

A number of males need or choose to not pee in the urinals in men's loos, cubicals are also provided for this and other obvious reasons.

R0wantrees

We were responding to a PP who specifically said that while some women came out as lesbian in middle age no middle aged women came out as being a transman.

We were expressing surprise at this "fact".

As I commented, I thought her voice and experience worth listening to and considering hence why I shared it here

Fair enough, but it just came across to me a bit as yes, females do transition to males sometimes but look, it was all a mistake and so transpeople maybe shouldn't be doing it in the first place.

We were responding to a PP who specifically said that while some women came out as lesbian in middle age no middle aged women came out as being a transman.

Yes I realise that. Perhaps what the poster meant to say was that to their knowledge hardly any middle aged women came out as being a transman.
That perhaps this was demonstrably different to the significant numbers of middle aged men who come out as being transwomen?