AIBU .... to open a transgender discussion thread for respectful debate !

[wrexhamtrans]

For the last couple of days I enjoyed a great discussion over transgender rights on a thread that has now closed. Despite over 1000 posts it was on the whole very respectful and insightful.

So let's have something new.... let's have a thread started by myself, a transsexual woman where we can have a healthy dialog. No TRA agenda, no erasure, no abuse or disrespect......

To kick things off I'd like to pick up on a comment made on a previous thread.
I fully accept many other women, who would previously allowed this [transgender women in women's spaces], now wouldn't because "we gave an inch and they stole a mile"

In the past there existed generally a happy coexistence between transsexual women and women.

Unfortunately the goalposts moved and we now have this broad umbrella of transgenderism which I will be the first to say is completely ridiculous. It is this new label that campaigns for cross dressers rights and acceptance of those who are sexual motivated. And of course self id is a dangerous and foolish idea.

Please remember there is still a quiet minority of transsexual women who do want to live their life in peace and who are as much against this as any woman. These TRAs do not represent me.

Being a woman for me is who I am. It's how society sees me because it cannot accept the way I am as permissible as a man. I am castrated and hormonally transitioned and awaiting surgery. I live every day as a woman and i am treated as one in many ways including misogyny, oppressed by male privilege, sexualisation....For some transition was the only way to have a life.

Those who cross dress and are sexual motivated are making a choice. Those with gender dysphoria are not.

There needs to be compromise on both sides, probably more so on the TRA side.
As transsexual I would like to have seen the following...

1. No self id. All those identifying as women to be psychologically evaluated and screened. Gender Dysphoria is no joke.
2. Any rights given to trans women go to dysphoric transsexual women who are in physical transition. No rights at all to other groups eg cross dressers....in other words is transsexual rights not transgender rights.
3. Access to some women's spaces permitted after X months of HRT and testosterone blocking therapy ie when Oestrogen and Testosterone levels are that of a natal female.

Unfortunately I think too much has been conceded already to revert.
I am fed up having my identity hijacked and turned into something it's not. I wouldn't wish gender dysphoria on my worst enemy. People with GD are damaged people who struggle considerably with gender identity and face daily abuse, ridicule and violence.

I absolutely do believe it is possible to born in the wrong body.....to have a brain chemistry of one gender and a body of another. Indeed we know of one generic condition called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome which does exactly that. The idea though that it's ok to mix this up with sexual fetishism is sooooo wrong.

Can you think of any other medical condition where it would be accepted for someone else to claim that condition because they like to pretend they have it ? If I applied to the Council for a Blue Badge because it turns me on to sometimes pretend I am disabled I would be told, rightly so, where to go. Why oh why would the Government capitulate that with gender dysphoria ? You were born in the wrong body, have significant mental health issues ? Yes, we will help you. You like to pretend you are a woman because it turns you on ? Of course, jump in there too.....

The belief system that female people shouldn't be trampled underfoot to pander to ineffable male feelings you can't even define?

Well my belief system is that all humans are equal. No one should have more rights than another and all humans should be treated with dignity and respect and with acknowledgement of their human rights.

You do you though.

I'm not a female person I'm a woman.

What IS all this misappropriation of language - since when was a female person as opposed to 'a woman' the actual name for a female person.

Why are you pushing for men to enter women's safe spaces, when they have been there for years for good safeguarding reasons, and for women to feel safe.
You have had this expressed to you but you don't seem to care less what women have to say.

What was that about "the playground" again?

Yep. You reap what you sow. What you send out gets reflected right back to you. Strange that huh?

Oh so it's ok for you Weatabix?

Meanwhile OP is sitting back enjoying watching women bicker and argue amongst themselves over what it feels like to be a woman....Because, of course, the only people who knows what it feels like to be a woman are transwomen. Yet none have ever answered the question. They always seem to flounce whenever THAT question is asked.

You never have though.

Read the goddamn sodding thread, you are unbelievable lol, you must be on the wind up, you're intentionally or unintentionally hilarious.

Bold fail derp Norty Corner for me again.

You have had this expressed to you but you don't seem to care less what women have to say.

I care what women have to say. I am expressing what I believe, my own view. If you're not interested in what I have to say then you aren't interested in the views of ALL women, only women who agree with you. So you are excluding some women.

If you're not interested in what I have to say then you aren't interested in the views of ALL women, only women who agree with you. So you are excluding some women.

YY!

Oh so it's ok for you Weatabix?

Only copying your MO Ereshkigal. Why is it ok for you to do it but object to others doing it back?

What is that about?

I wasn't the one who did the original pearl clutching.

People used to think gay men shouldn’t be allowed near children as they were child abusers. No one admitted they were homophobic, they were just looking out for the kids.

But we are not that group of people, some of us are lesbian or bisexual and fought that war. I experienced terrible homophobia when I came out in the 80s. There was no detriment to other people in that instance, but there is here with an impact on women and girls' safety.

Meanwhile OP is sitting back enjoying watching women bicker and argue amongst themselves over what it feels like to be a woman....Because, of course, the only people who knows what it feels like to be a woman are transwomen. Yet none have ever answered the question. They always seem to flounce whenever THAT question is asked

Assume you haven't read the thread? If so try and stick it out because there is actually a good discussion in the middle somewhere about female being a sense of self as well for some.
I don't blame OP for leaving, the shit thrown at the beginning.
OP was engaging well and got a whole other response with a great discussion on the other thread.
Whole different tone thread then to this one.

But eresh all those other men, they don't want to get into women's spaces so they are not the same at all. They are oppositional to you in that respect.
So,no, not the same.

I was born female.

I started having periods aged 11.

I started IVF in my late 30s and was diagnosed with gyny cancer.

As a result of the surgery (total hysterectomy) which no doubt saved my life, I have no uterus, cervix or ovaries and am childless but am fortunate to be well. My Gyny cancer was unusually caught at an early stage.

I know these to be uniquely female experiences and as an adult human female, I am a woman.

I think words matter
I think sex matters

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3290927-AIBU-to-say-that-I-am-a-woman-not-a-non-man-non-trans-woman-or-cis-women

In my view, people living genuinely and consistently as the opposite sex should be recognised as that sex.

And how do they do that? What differences are there between living as a woman and living as a man?

There was no detriment to other people in that instance, but there is here with an impact on women and girls' safety.

I think that the homophobes back then though justified their hatred by citing perceived detriment. So they imagined that gay people were going to do them down in some way. Of course that wasn't true but that is how they justified their beliefs.

Same as the argument against same sex marriage. What harm has that done to anyone? Why was there so much opposition to it?

Some people were wrongly frightened of gays , but that is not justification to say we should welcome transpeople unquestionably. People one time thought exterminating Jews was the right thing to do.

....and the men that that do want to force themselvea into women's spaces will get into trouble for it because it's a crime, its deviant as a male to seek to deceive in order to access protected spaces. To watch naked women and their DC. All those men understand that and don't want other men forcing their way into their female colleagues spaces, their wives, sisters, children's, safeguarded environment.
No, they don't.

No one should have more rights than another and all humans should be treated with dignity and respect and with acknowledgement of their human rights.

Should women and girls have the right to a single-sex space when they are vulnerable or naked?

Earlywalker I didn't say all but it appears to be most.

Anyone who has spent any time on the Relationships board will be familiar with "the script", a predictable course of action nearly all unfaithful husbands follow.

Well, thanks to the unfortunate women who call themselves trans widows, we know there's a "script" for late transitioning men too. There are hundreds of accounts online and the similarities between them are striking.

I will not detail all the steps because they are not a pleasant read and the women involved generally find the experience degrading and destructive.

Anyone who is interested in the details can Google trans widows or read the long running support thread on Feminism Chat.

I would respond to the idea that these guys are finally stopping living a lie, just as lesbians and gay men sometimes do, by pointing out that it doesn't appear to happen with women. Middle aged women sometimes come out as lesbians but not as transmen.

Plus one of the things trans widows all talk about is the obsessive consumption of trans porn. It's the fastest growing category of porn, according to the industry. And it's by consuming it that users appear to generate gender dysphoria. They start off wearing lingerie occasionally and end by claiming they've always been female. Their wives and kids would beg to differ.

And how do they do that? What differences are there between living as a woman and living as a man?

How does any woman live differently to men? There's actually very little that all women have in common. I guess the only thing is chromosomal. But how are any of us identified as women in the outside world? I don't, as a rule, show my genitals in public nor do I share my DNA with everyone so how does anyone identify me as a woman?

Middle aged women sometimes come out as lesbians but not as transmen.

Really? No middle aged woman has ever come out as a transman? Can you evidence that?

So are you agreeing that there is no difference other than biology, weetabix?

Assume you haven't read the thread? If so try and stick it out because there is actually a good discussion in the middle somewhere about female being a sense of self as well for some

I've read the thread. Well most of it. It seems to be going round in circles and getting very boring.

Nobody can explain how it feelz to be a woman. It's not a feeling. You are either a woman, as in the dictionary definition, or you're not.