The whole shit show can hardly be blamed on Theresa May can it

[dawnacorns]

I'm hardly her number one fan but I can't see how getting rid of her is the answer. They just don't seem to know what they're doing. It's an absolute mess whichever way you look at it.

drspouse but imagine if she hadn't and the Brexiteers behind her had carried out - we would still be debating the very basics years down the line. IMO we've ignored the impacts of austerity in favour of Brexit for long enough, let alone the costs racking up. I didn't like it at the time and I agree it was quicker than necessary (although Corbyn also pushed for it) but I am glad she is still in, as I suspect she wouldn't be if they had thought she had kicked Brexit into the long grass like that from the get go.
Although she may have half done that in the end anyway, I'm glad it's an option rather than just crashing out

I too love the word Voldemogg. Although it does ascribe more intelligence and self-awareness than the scrote deserves.

YANBU

I'm interested to know what the people that thinks shes done a great job would say shes done particularly well? All I can see is someone who triggered article 50 with no plan when she could have said "we will be formulating a plan" and actually planned something, paid a fortune to the DUP so she could stay in power, and has overseen a huge rise in foodbank use and disability cuts without apparently lifting a finger. Even with Grenfell she was slow and lacklustre in a response. Her only selling point seems to be "shes not as bad as the others" and I dont think someone whos "least bad" should be applauded as being great by default.

What has she done thats been great that I'm missing?

Such naivety on this thread.

Yeah, you tell us all where we're going wrong

I do wonder if she sleeps at night.

I don't like her politics or her party but I do admire her. She's tried her damn best given that Brexit is in principle and reality a truly shit idea. She looks knackered.

I admire her in the same way I admire Ireland's late Finance Minister Brian Lenihan. I don't agree with the choices he made or his politics but he tried his damn best to steer the country through hell (whilst suffering from cancer).

But so much of this - the resulting deal and the necessary capitulation to the EU's demands - was fucking obvious BEFORE and IMMEDIATELY AFTER the referendum. Brexit is not possible because of the Irish border, I said to leave-voting friends who just shook their heads and said "they'll sort it out, we need to take back control".

People's Vote to cancel Brexit is the only sensible way out, followed by accepting an EEA arrangement.

I blame her. She triggered article 50 with no plan and then called a totally unnecessary general election which not only wasted three months of valuable negotiation time but also spectacularly backfired and led to the DUP having more power than they should.

She should have been honest with the public and formed a cross party group to spend six months reviewing the issues and options before triggering article 50. She should have appointed actual experts to the roles of DEXEU and Trade ministers instead of filling the roles with token leavers with an appalling lack of knowledge on the topic. Instead she repeated the bollocks that Brexit means Brexit over and over again in the hope that no one would notice that she didn't have a plan and she kept kicking issues down the path so she didn't have to deal with them. Now it's crunch time and we barely have time to prepare for a deal, let alone do the prep that would be needed for no deal.

She's a typical Tory, completely spineless and puts party over country every time. She gets no sympathy from me.

@surferjet Cameron only held a referendum for his political gain and the gain of the Tory’s not for the good of the population. He did have a choice

She should have been honest with the public and formed a cross party group to spend six months reviewing the issues and options before triggering article 50. She should have appointed actual experts to the roles of DEXEU and Trade ministers instead of filling the roles with token leavers with an appalling lack of knowledge on the topic.

Yes - but can we identify anyone else who would have done that?

I suppose it depends how much real control leave MPs had over parliament and how much real risk remain MPs faced if they were seen to be ‘betraying’ their constituents.

But so much of this - the resulting deal and the necessary capitulation to the EU's demands - was fucking obvious BEFORE and IMMEDIATELY AFTER the referendum. Brexit is not possible because of the Irish border, I said to leave-voting friends who just shook their heads and said "they'll sort it out, we need to take back control".
This^
It was clear to May the best deal was to try to make as similar a deal to the one we have without it looking like she is giving concessions. There simply was no way to make a better deal (hence all the men dropping out when it came to them doing a job involving sorting out Brexit - Raab can't even get behind what he himself spent months negotiating, even after admitting he forgot we rely on trade as an island ). I honestly don't like her other policies and wouldn't vote for her, but she's played it well considering they would have booted her out and got BoJo in far sooner if she hadn't triggered Art50. She knew by that point no 'experts' were going to be listened to and it was just elongating the amount of time she had to hold it all together enough to limp to the finishing line with whatever she could string together and beg for out of the EU.

It's an absolute mess. I actually feel quite sorry for Theresa May. I don't like this deal, but its impossible to come up with a deal that everyone (or even a majority) would be happy with.

If she is voted out, then what will anyone else be able to do any better? And at this stage.

The whole situation feels utterly crazy.

garnished with the red NHS promise bus
why is this always brought up?

I don't know anyone who read that as all that money would go to the NHS.

I'm a remainer (and a remoaner) but I've got time for May. I think this is basically the only deal that ever could have existed other than leaving altogether and going to WTO terms or staying in.

Whether this actually makes enough people happy to be doable though I have no idea. The way I see it, this gives us less sovereignty over economic matters than we have now (we have to abide by product safety rules, competition law, state aid law etc. in order to get access to the customs union - but we no longer have a say in making those laws), but more say over immigration.

So for people for whom it was mainly about wanting control of our borders, they may say this is a price worth paying. Given that Brexiters in total were such a slim majority though, I can't help thinking that a sub-set for whom it was all about immigration must be well less than 50% of the population. So the real question is whether the rest of us (on both hard Brexit and remainer sides) will live with it, or find a way to force one of the more extreme outcomes (staying in or crashing out).

It's all a bloody mess. But it's not May's fault. I think she's done a competent job and we easily could have been in an even worse mess with a less competent leader (e.g. Gove, Johnson, Cameron, Corbyn or God Forbid the awful Rees-Mogg).

I agree with you litttlealbatross that the GE was stupid. I can't see that a cross party group would have agreed on anything in 6 months, especially with Corbyn involved. I'm disappointed with how terrible Labour has been, as well as the Tories.
I really really don't want Esther McVey. Or JRM or Bojo. TM does seem to be the least worst option at the moment.

May has done as well as anyone else could.
The EU were never going to give us what the Brexiters promised. It was a bag of shit from the very start.

place marking

I agree lighttripper I think a second vote on the actual options as they stand seems the only sensible way forward now.

I'm not a Tory voter but I agree with you OP. Theresa May has done the best she could in the circumstances.

Cameron ran away

Raab has only recently discovered where a lot of our food comes from

Not a high bar, but she's done much better than anyone else

She should have been honest with the public

TM was a remainer.
What about all the brexiters, brois Johnson, Liam fox, David Davies, let along ReesMog? Was it not up to THEM to come up with a solution and be honest about what couod and couldn’t be done? Instead of telling us again and again it was going to be easiest agreement in the world etc... they were ministers afte all. Brexiters. Surely it was THEIR responsibility first and foremost?

I have always voted Labour but am very sickened by the way Corbyn and his cronies are licking their lips thinking this shit show is going to result in a General Election. Even if it somehow does can I let Mr Corbyn know YOU WILL NEVER WIN BECAUSE EVEN DIE-HARD LABOUR VOTERS WILL NEVER VOTE A BUFFOON LIKE YOU IN TO RUN THIS MESS OF A COUNTRY, WE WOULD BE DOWN THE PAN IN A MATTER OF WEEKS.

I will be emailing my Labour MP to ask him to support this deal (not because it sounds great but it is better than no deal) and if he doesn't I will never vote Labour again. I don't have a clue who I will vote for as the thought of voting Tory turns my stomach (work in Education and they are slowly killing us) however I would still choose May over Corbyn.

On a more personal note I actually think Teresa May is quite an incredible, strong woman and I do have some admiration for her and I would say KEEP GOING TES, YOUR COUNTRY NEEDS YOU TO WHIP THE ASSES OF ALL THOSE WET PUBLIC SCHOOL BOYS! Wouldn't do her job (and couldn't tbh) for 10 times her salary.

I don't blame her. It was Cameron.who made the referendum happen and left when the shit hit the fan

Another one here who thinks TM has done as much as she could with a complete mess. Lets face it, whatever 'deal' had been reached, the likes of BJ and his ilk would vote against it as a matter of principal - she was never going to win even if the deal was everything the UK demanded!!.

IMO, the problem was caused because the people who called the vote were never the sort who could appreciate the feelings of the majority who did vote Leave - the people who get sick of walking down their town streets and not hearing a word of English, those who can't get an appointment at the doctors for weeks on end as the doctors surgeries are treating so many immigrants, those whose children are struggling in classes of 40 pupils where there are so many different languages being spoken, none of them English, that every child is struggling as a result.

Yes I know that is a huge generalisation but I believe it is a big problem to a lot of people and they thought that voting Leave would rid them of these issues. Its all very well for those politicians and businessmen who can afford to pay for a private GP appointment the same day, or have a poorly knee and get into the consultant two days later cos they have a healthcare policy through work, or who send their children to private school. Yes, they can see the issues leaving the EU will do to business, trade etc but to those at grass roots level of UK living? Thats way down the list of priorities.

The reason it's such a shit-show is in very large part down to the arrogance of Cameron et al, who were so confident that remain would win. I voted Leave, but it never occurred to me that they wouldn't have a least a draft plan in place - you can hope for the best but should always prepare for the worst, and leave winning was their worst.

Oh, and I didn't believe a word of the propaganda on either side as I'd made up my mind years before the referendum was even promised.

I feel that there are movers and shakers in the EU who are pushing for closer and closer political integration, to a United States of Europe level, and don't think that is right for any of the member countries. We're all so different and I don't believe we could merge to that degree.

I happened to chat a few months ago to a British woman who'd lived in Greece for 20 odd years, married a local, raised her family there. She reckons that the EU is going to implode and that the UK is best off out of it before that happens. She thinks we'll be over the worst of it by the time the other countries are just having to start dealing with fallout. I think she may well be right.