Brexit -have you changed your mind??

[Leapfrog44]

I know Brexit has been done to death and I'm not asking for anyone's justification for wanting out or in.

I'm just really curious to know if any of the folks who voted leave have changed their minds (as is sometimes reported by the Guardian).

@Sadsiblingatsea I am sorry that you received that treatment. No one deserves that.

However, my sympathies end there because you also do some name calling in your post.

I come from a Leave area and have had over two years of 'we won, You lost, deal with it.' and being called a remainder every time I tried to state a viewpoint or show that their facts might be slightly skewed.
Yes
Name calling is utterly childish and prohibits discussion.

As MN says, when someone tells you who they are, listen to them.

I'm going to give Maya Angelou the credit for that one.

@arethereanyleftatall So now everything has to be inspiring? That sounds fucking exhausting.

Discussing fishing, the fishing rights in the North Sea, Atlantic amnd Scandinavian seas were decided by the London Fisheries Convention of 1964. Of the signatories to this only Italy and Luxemborg ( one which has no fishing industry, the other too far away from the North Sea/Atlantic areas to make a difference) were then included in the CFP.

Furthermore, the UK currently has the largest fishing ports in the EU, Fraseborough and Peterhead.

Changes to the rules about where different nations were allowed to fish came in 1976, when the 12 nautical mile exclusive zones were extended to 200.

This greatly benefited the UK because having lost the Cod wars with Iceland ( finally decided 1973/4) the traditional fishing areas agreed in the 1964 agreement were no longer fished by UK fishermen and they now had to come back in to fish in areas traditionally used by other countries.

The UK government chooses who gets quotas, and has a policy of selecting large firms atm.

Oh and please don't mention Farage and fishing, he had his chance to make a difference, he didn't, but chose to grandstand on the Thames instead, he is exactly what Geldof called him, a fraud.

Given that many of the European nations that are NATO allies won't cough up (Germany is the main culprit here), then I am unsure how the money will be forthcoming for an EU Army

Germany pays toward defence almost as much as the UK, as a % of GDP (their economy is bigger), its less, amazing how successful you can be in the EU ! obviously all their spending is on conventional forces, though given your stance on the EU, i'm not sure why you are advocating Germany spend more?
However, i agree, money will be tight for a "new" force, so why do you get so hung up on this proposal? its leavers very own Project fear... absurd you suggest the EU would invade Catalonia, Italy or Greece, what a load of utter rubbish, it undermines your argument.

imho a big issue with brexit is that, without the UK, Germany/France have a free hand in shaping the EU and that might not always be in our best interests, especially as this WA seems to tie us into the EU with zero say in rule making, a huge loss of sovereignty in something that was supposed to give it back!!!!

"Given that many of the European nations that are NATO allies won't cough up "

Major misunderstanding of how NATO operates there as well.

There is no debt account at NATO, ikts an agreement to pay a certain proportion of GDP on defence.

The UK spends about 1.8% on defense, Germany 1.2%, but Germany does not maintain a nuclear arsenal or deterrent system.

The way Trump ( and Scaryteacher) have explained it is disingenuous.

Still Remain. I don't believe that Brexit will lead to greater sovereignty in practice, or that it will save us money or relieve pressure on our hospitals and schools.

I do believe that it will cost a fortune in bureaucracy and lost opportunities and leave us weaker and more vulnerable on the world stage.

OUT!!!!!

{What are wto terms?surely thats no deal

As I said no one knows what ANY of these terms mean. Today's agreement only signals the start of the negotiations for the future of our relationship.}

WTO terms are a framework of rules but apart from a very base rate NO ONE actually trades at the base rate as every country has negotiated 'deals' with others. It is damn complicated and a trade deal can take 10 years to get signed.

Trump wants to break up NATO and an EU army may largely be an exercise in linking together the member countries own armies, rather than starting again. For historical reasons there are restrictions on military forces in Germany.

Would vote leave again.

Im sure most of us are apprehensive about leaving because we don't know what will happen, me included. However we need to consider what a future in the EU holds for us instead. The unknowns of leaving are incredibly daunting. BUT there are also unknowns of staying. Take a closer look at the EU and you find it is a crumbling institution that can not make a decision that satisfies all its members, who's members influence is increasingly diluted with new member states. Our laws are determined by other countries. Fundamentally that is wrong and isn't sustainable with so many countries with their different cultures and agendas. Member states cannot agree on migration and since the migrant crisis the EU is criss-crossed with huge wire fences to divert hundreds of thousands of migrants. Not the harmonious union we think it is. The EU is constantly bailing out other countries and this will continue and will eventually kill the Euro. It's not all rosy in the EU. The EU model is flawed and has served its purpose for our nation but now it is time to move on and regain control. We will figure out trade arrangements and all the other detail. Won't be easy. But then nothing worth having is easy.

Given that many of the European nations that are NATO allies won't cough up (Germany is the main culprit here), then I am unsure how the money will be forthcoming for an EU Army

Nobody 'coughs up' for NATO. Members are meant to spend 2% of GDP on defence, they're not meant to contribute 2% to NATO.

The USA contributes more than 2% of their GDP (3.6%) because they choose to sail around the world throwing their weight around. Many of their activities have no possible connection to the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation.

Similarly the UK spends slightly over 2.1% but gets involved in operations completely unconnected with NATO interests.

Germany of course, in common with most NATO members, doesn't waste money on fleets of aircraft carriers and nuclear submarines and doesn't attempt to project its will around the globe, getting involved in regional spats which have nothing to do with it.

@DeloresJaneUmbridge, you write, `the interllectual capacity to understand facts and reasoning does seem to be lacking in some Leave voters'.

It is this kind of arrogant, self-regarding claptrap that drove so many of us to vote Leave in the first place, sigh.

It is a classic example of the superior, pompous, self-aggrandising and misspelt verbiage that sticks in the craw of us uneducated Neanderthals.

Either you believe in democracy or you don’t. Or perhaps you would prefer it if only graduates and other superior personages could vote?

I thought eugenics went out with the Nazi’s but it appears to be staging a bit of a comeback amongst a worrying proportion of the Remain voting classes.

@rainbowquack, I am sorry that you are offended by my post and erroneously accuse me of name calling'. I would be very grateful if you would re-read my posts as I have no wish to indulge in name calling’. Each of us has the right to express our views and disagree with each other and this can be done politely. It actually negates one’s position to be rude or `name call’.

Today I was campaigning outside Parliament with other like-minded Leave supporters. I dread campaigning as again we were harrassed, sworn at and corralled by those with opposing views.

I tried to reason with one man who set upon me. I explained, I have a right to be here as we have a tradition in this country of free speech’, but he just told me to FUCK OFF’.

I weigh under 8 stone and he was physically very intimidating.

All I wish is that Leave supporters would be allowed to campaign publicly without being abused, intimidated and sworn at.

I'd still vote leave as would many other leave voters I know.

All I wish is that Leave supporters would be allowed to campaign publicly without being abused, intimidated and sworn at.
Poor little leavers. Do you think Remain protestors don't get harrassed as much, if not more? Have you seen the nonsense Steve Bray gets outside parliament? Have you seen the abuse Gina Miller gets every time she sticks her head above the parapet? The death threats? Stop making out that Leavers are a particular target. I've been called a fucking libtard by someone who was so in my face that I had to wipe the saliva off afterwards. It's not nice. But it's not something that just happens to Leave supporters.

news.sky.com/story/majority-of-brits-now-against-brexit-and-back-second-eu-referendum-sky-data-poll-11555078?
Something for determined Brexiteers to think about. Tide is turning against

boris Question for you, seeing I majorly misunderstand how NATO works...how was the brand new shiny HQ funded then, if the NATO allies don't pay something to NATO? How are the salaries of the International Staff funded (the non military secretariat that do a lot of the heavy lifting at NATO)? It is done by direct funding...if you care to follow the link, you'll see the answer www.nato.int/cps/em/natohq/topics_67655.htm

jasjas Mmm, Germany. www.dw.com/en/germanys-lack-of-military-readiness-dramatic-says-bundeswehr-commissioner/a-42663215 Perhaps they should spend more than their 1.24% to ensure that their equipment actually works then. I am advocating Germany spends more to fulfil the commitments it made when it became a NATO nation.

Fishes see above for how NATO is actually funded, and yes, NATO allies do cough up with direct funding. If the comment about aircraft carriers is aimed at the UK, two don't constitute a fleet. France spends money on nuclear boats, both attack and bombers, but unless you want Russia (who has some shiny new nuclear boats) to have control of the oceans and be able to attack allied underwater infrastructure at will, you need other submarines to deter them.

Yes the UK provides defence for the Falklands, (difficult to do without ships, submarines and planes really), has a presence in Bahrain to keep the shipping lanes open in the gulf (oh, need ships for that one), keeps a constant nuclear deterrent, ensures our airspace isn't infringed on etc.

I would also point out that some NATO nations don't spend money on the maritime sphere as they don't have a coastline!

Interestingly, all the polls before the Referendum came out for Remain.

The polls are often wrong.

I don't know any leaver who has changed their minds. I think this is wishful thinking.

I seem to remember the polls flipped back and forward constantly between Leave and Remain being ahead before the referendum.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum

I voted Leave. I would vote Leave again.

I don't know any leaver who has changed their minds

I don't think I do either, I do know plenty of Leavers (and Remainers) who dearly wish we had never had that referendum though.

I'm sorry you have experienced hostility @Sadsiblingatsea

I do think Leave have the worse reputation for violence though. 700,000 Remainers marched though London without a single broken window. Somebody I know was beaten up and suffered a broken nose while manning a Remain street stall. Bunch of far right thugs set upon him, there was just him and one women together on the stall, he is in his late 60s. And then of course there was the murder of Jo Cox.

I really fear for the future of this country and what this referendum has done. Before this I'd never had a single conversation with anybody about the EU, it just never came up. Well, apart from my mum (and others) grumbling about immigrants, I did just ignore it before. David Cameron has a lot to answer for in my book, he took a divisive issue and made everybody pick a side. When we Brexit, and it's shit (it will be) how angry do you the the Scots and the Northern Irish will be, being taken out of the EU, against their will and being stripped of their rights as EU citizens (will, the Scots)

I know several leavers who have changed their mind, well kind of. They didn't really want to leave they just voted that way to "make a point".

@Sadsiblingatsea I read your posts. I have the impression that you like to play the 'poor little me' card.

I agree you should be able to express your views without fear, but what were you doing when you were campaigning that made another person 'set upon you' outside of parliament?

I am just not buying your 'butter wouldn't melt' act...

And this has nothing at all to do with your voting leave. I just think you are telling half a story.

I agree with the point made upthread about Leavers being quiet. The Remainers who are all "I don't know anyone who voted Leave - everyone around me voted Remain" - well my colleagues and friends probably think like that but it's not true. I voted Leave but didn't tell them.

Why did I keep quiet? Because the day immediately after the referendum everyone around me was automatically assuming that anyone 'educated' voted Remain (I have a PhD and voted Leave). My boss took the day off work she was so upset at the result and the moment I saw her she was laying into the 'thick, bigoted, racist Leave voters' - the abuse had already begun. Arrogant, mouthy Liberals assumed that anyone who voted differently from them was stupid. People who I'd thought were smart and thoughtful now couldn't accept a democratic vote with anything approaching good grace. It was ugly to watch. So I kept quiet. But I'd vote Leave again.