Brexit -have you changed your mind??

[Leapfrog44]

I know Brexit has been done to death and I'm not asking for anyone's justification for wanting out or in.

I'm just really curious to know if any of the folks who voted leave have changed their minds (as is sometimes reported by the Guardian).

I'm a reluctant remainer. I had traditionally been Euro-sceptic and thought a Norway style EEA arrangement would be better than full membership, but voted Remain after realising that it requires significant financial commitment without the influence to control regulations that affect them. I thought in the end that it was better to keep our position with our vetoes, and that it would still be better than what will be negotiated.

I do think the EU has become too vast and complex for its own good, and retaining some financial independence has stood us in good stead with more flexibility to adjust to changing financial pressures.

We are very accomplished at creating our own beurocracy and cock-ups but there is the slight mitigating factor that our domestic politics is more accountable to our interests than the more anonymous EU which is tied up in a constant compromise between 27+ countries with differing interests and its own self imterest to continue existing.

Love it or loathe it, we have to exist with it, either within or alongside it. I felt there was more advantage to maintaining our position within than the huge gamble to leaving.

Quite honestly the state of British politics is depressing enough without Brexit.

"All you want is a chance to pull it apart, and if there's an argument you can't pull apart, (there will be), you'll switch to nonsense insults. "

Not at all. However, critique of opinions and their basis in reality is a part of democracy. You can't complain that your reasons are valid but criticised by not offer any, it utterly undermines your point.

"umpteen good reasons to leave,"

What are the best 3. Please, please tell me.

I voted remain and would do again in a heartbeat. However, since it looks like we are leaving, I really want to believe that this is going to be a good thing for our country. I am yet to hear one single argument to convince me that this is the case. I actually would love someone to tell me why leaving is the right thing to do, how it will help our country or let us do things that we previously couldn't do when we were in the EU. Please someone make me believe that this is going to be a positive thing. I have waited nearly 3 years.

I voted remain and stand by it still. Have not changed my views

I genuinely sat and watched Question Time with Farage on it after the leave vote hoping that things couldn't get to bad, listened to what he had to say and thought maybe it won't be as bad as I thought.

Well, for those Leave voters who are still 100% gagging for it - especially the ones who want a hard Brexit - enjoy your watered-down BINO!

Arethereany. Whilst expostulating about the many reasons for leaving , you neglected to mention any. Care to do that?

I voted Remain and nothing I've heard or read since the vote has changed my mind one iota. I feel even more strongly about it now. Why Article 50 had to be invoked so quickly, with no research or planning undertaken first, is a mystery to me. Am absolute omnishambles all round.

If the agreement passes its BINO.

If not its a constitutional crisis and hard brexit.

Well done leave voters

Ok, just 3. And I'm not going in to detail because I have to go shopping.

1. I want a global situation. Global movement of people, global trade. I think that we are so restricted by having to take in Europeans who may well not have anything to offer our country, that we had to deny those from other countries all over the world who may have the skill set we need. (Ironically, the opposite of racism, as Europeans are white, and the rest of the world are mixed).

1. I believe that the constant flow of those who can work for less was driving down wages. A 24 year old single Spanish guy with no qualifications, can work for a wage which a 40 year old husband with a family and no qualifications can not.

1. The eu are not audited, they can do whatever they like with the money.

Some more.

1. Long term, I don't think there's a future for the eu. The net contributors will not be able to hold up the other countries who are only taking.

1. A small thing. Dh, a surgeon, says there's some practices which he believes are really good (I don't know them, sorry), which have been banned by eu but used, and proven, in USA etc.

1. Ironically, I think the eu is an institution which is inherently racist. 'We will allow movement of people from these (white) countries, to restrict those pesky others getting in.'

1. They're being real arseholes with us leaving. Kind of brings me back to point 3, they're just making up the rules as they go along, and no one can stop them.

Those are just some of my reasons. I'm going to Tesco's now, and I know they will get pulled apart, and ripped to pieces. They are possibly naive. I dont think we should ever have had a vote. I, like 99% of people on both sides, was not informed enough to make a decent decision.

I voted leave and would again. I'm not thick and I'm the child of a European immigrant. I have grave concerns about the future of the EU generally whether or not the uk is part of it.

I'm not sure about the current deal on the table - that looks like a total muddle and why we had a remainer negotiating the deal is beyond me.

However, I don't think something like this should have ever been put to public vote in the terms it was and I think that a leave vote should have needed a special majority (75%).

The whole thing doesn't make sense to me. Seems like the current deal would put Britainin a worse position than before. So why do it? Because the public committed to it and now nobody wants to change their mind because once you decide something you should stick to it, even if it makes everything worse? Is that some sort of pride/stubbornness thing?

Allow to repudiate your points:

1. You want a global situation. There is no such thing as a global trade agreement. On our own we get far worse terms than we do when we are with the EU.,

The second point regarding immigration is a non-sequitur, we already have control over global immigration, and its higher than EU immigration.

1. . I believe that the constant flow of those who can work for less was driving down wages.

This has been repeatedly proved incorrect by the Bank of England, the LSE, UCL and by the Governments own migration committee. You can believe it, but its not true.

1. The EU are audited and the organisation its self passes audit, what doesn't t is how member states ( including the UK) allocate EU money themselves, and this is mostly down to errors or to not following procurement procedure.

Its not that "The eu are not audited, they can do whatever they like with the money."

fullfact.org/europe/did-auditors-sign-eu-budget/

1. "The net contributors will not be able to hold up the other countries who are only taking. " the Payment rounds are discussed every 8 years or so, former net recipients become net contributors ( like Ireland and Spain). It isn't a long term agreement that all countries who are recipients get it forever.

1. Anecdote. Possible, but the EU don't ban things for no good reason, would need evidence.

6."We will allow movement of people from these (white) countries, to restrict those pesky others getting in.'"

Because its part of the single market rules, and reciprocal. It isn't racist at all. Poor reasoning.

7." They're being real arseholes with us leaving."

Nope thats entirely down to our poor negotiating strategy and the fact that leave promised things that they could never deliver. The EU made its position clear from the start of the referendum campaigns, no cherry picking, no deal for the UK that is better than for members. Thats what we've repeatedly asked for, and repeatedly broken negation rules and protocols.

The mess we are in is entirely of the making of the leave campaign and its voters.

I voted leave and I'll vote leave again and before remainers start calling leave voters selfish they should take a good hard look at themselves. I voted knowing it could make things harder for this country so is it not the remain voters who are only interested in their own selves and the fact that they might lose out?

One of the things I find distasteful about the EU is the exclusivity. It's a club not a support group I'd rather see it work harder to support the whole of Europe and in better ways. I live in an area that has had a lot of EU funding but it's shite, it's wrong, it does not benefit the area because the basics, the infrastructure isn't in place to benefit. It hasn't brought any benefit to the area while we keep being told you've had all this money spent on you.

Boris to be fair I've seen a handful of Leavers explain reasonably coherently why they voted as they did and their reasons for wanting to leave. Oracle is one of those. What I have yet to see though, on any thread related to Brexit, is what exactly Leavers believe will be better after Brexit (that will materialise in our own/ our dc's lifetimes that is) and how the perceived benefits outweigh the risks of leaving. As soon as the focus shifts to facts as opposed to opinion the narrative becomes a lot more feelings rather than fact-based. Things like "stop talking our country down, everything will be fiiiiiiine, there's nothing to see here, be more positive and get behind Great Britain!" Um, facts and evidence please.

I've seen reasons, but I've not seen ones that are valid really.

Seen lots of supposition, and misunderstandings.

Arethereanyleft. Thank you for your list. I believe you may have been misled if you are able to hold those views which are demonstrably mistaken in several ways. I am sorry that you fell for it. Enjoy your shopping, its a lovely day.

1. We have control over global immigration, yes, but no space left. Apple picker from Poland versus a doctor from South Africa for the one space available.
2. On the ground level, a small business owner can pay £8 an hour to apple picker from Poland, (and pocket lots of profit for himself) and English family man cannot support his family for that. Wages stay low.
3. Ok.
4. They don't necessarily become net contributors do they?
5. I don't know, you'll have to take my word for it. I believe dh.
6. Who knows what's being offered, or not? Unless you were sat around the table at chequers.

1. We have control over global immigration, yes, but no space left. Apple picker from Poland versus a doctor from South Africa for the one space available. - there is plenty of space, the choice of increasing limits on non EU immigrants was purely politicial.

1. " On the ground level, a small business owner can pay £8 an hour to apple picker from Poland, (and pocket lots of profit for himself) and English family man cannot support his family for that. Wages stay low. " Wages haven't grown in the UK in real terms for other reasons, if what you claim had been happening it would be statistically evident. It isn't.

No, I still think it is the most ridiculous thing to have ever happened politically and anyone who is in favour of it is either rich and would benefit from it i.e Johnson et al or they don't fully understand it.

I don't blame people for not understanding it. It's a complex topic. So complex it should never have been put to public vote.

The government is throwing us off a cliff edge and things are gonna get very bad, very quick for the most vulnerable in society.

Do you think there will be another referendum? If so what would the options be?

I voted out and would do the same again. I won’t pretend that I am an expert on the matter, but surely as a nation we can make this work!
I’ve lost friends over this, people who voted remain and simply disliked the fact that I had voted out. That makes me sad but there’s nothing to be done about it.

It seems like the current agreement says that in order to get the trade agreements we want, we will have to follow certain conditions and rules set by the EU. So that's basically the same as what we do now, except worse because the trade agreement isn't as good and we don't get any say on the conditions, which we did as a member.

The only real change will be that we won't have to allow freedom of movement. Which as stated above was shown to provide a net income to the economy, so... that's a negative side effect.

The stuff about having more money for domestic spending was shown to be a lie.

So wait, what's the plus side of this Brexit?

Was Remain. Still Remain. The divisions the referendum have caused make me sad, and increase in racism makes me angry.

Just curious as to how the avowed Leavers in this thread feel now we have a deal agreed ? Presumably they're happy we can move on, and get back to making the UK great again ?