Would you really say this women has to pee in the mens toilets?

[letsseethanshallwe]

There is so many threads on mumsnet about how transwomen should not be allowed in womens bathrooms because of the threat of attack ect. KNow I have someone very close in my family who is transgender (FTM) they pass as a man easily, so when these threads come up i always relate them to him, if he was to walk into a womens bathroom people would think it was extremly wrong, but thats what people are suggesting because hes chromosones say hes a women. I do understand the argument of a transwomen who dosent pass as a women atall to no use the womens toliets, but it seems to me that people seem to think that evrey transwomen wont pass. SO attached i have a picture of a youtuber who is trans, would you really see her be put in a mens toliets, that wouls surely plass her in a lot of danger.
Or do you think she should still use the mens. I'm genuilly intrested. Ive name changed recently and done another thread on a simal topic that got no replies. I just want to see were your argument lies

You haven’t answered my last question, 2128Cl. Where does a traumatised woman/girl’s right not to see a penis come in your trans accepting world?

A month or so back, I had a spa treatment booked while on holiday at Center Parcs. I needed to strip down to underwear and get a robe on first, so I went to the women's changing rooms. I straight away noticed a transwoman - big, burly, blonde wig, talking in a breathy voice - who had already got changed into a robe. I have absolutely no reason to believe that they were there for any reason other than to get changed for the spa. I didn't particularly perceive them as a threat. But I didn't feel comfortable stripping off in front of them (no cubicles) so I waited until they'd gone through to the spa waiting area. As I was waiting for them to leave (doing general faffing so as not to appear rude ) I noticed that pretty much every other woman in the changing room was doing the same as I was. No one said anything, but the atmosphere of unease was plain.

I'm not sure of the point of this anecdote really, other than to say I am not comfortable being in a state of undress round any male other than DH. Not my dad (who is lovely), my male friends or random strangers. My boundaries matter and I expect a single sex space to be just that.

@Datun it was a point that had nothing to do with sexual crimes. There have been mentions of a male presence making a female uncomfortable through gazes and sneers, women are also capable of this. Surely we can agree that women regularly judge each other and make each other uncomfortable.

99.9% of people who have made me feel unsafe have been men and I could probably defend myself quite well from the rest

NothingTraLaLa it's a perfect example of how women are compromising on their comfort, ease and safety just to make way for males. People always say 'no evidence of any issues' and by issues they generally mean reports of serious sexual assault, I assume.
It's a pretty low bar to set, where women should only complain once they have been subject to violence.
The change in our privacy and comfort in sex-segregated spaces is certainly an issue, but one that is not monitored or even noticed by the majority of men.

Surely we can agree that women regularly judge each other and make each other uncomfortable. There is no fucking comparison and you know that! A women in a female space does not make a woman feel unsafe in the same way.

@PositivelyPERF in my experience people get changed discretely in shared areas. If it was a problem, you could ask them to be more discrete or you could move into a cubicle? I have said I don't know the solution but I don't agree with excluding transwomen.

Surely we can agree that women regularly judge each other and make each other uncomfortable.

Hmmm. I'm beginning to think you're not posting in good faith. I thought you were just being naive.

Women occasionally judging other woman's bodies is not the same as mixed sex changing rooms. I'm actually laughing here. That is so ludicrous.

If "she" has a penis, then "she" pees in the men's.

2128Cl perhaps I should teach my pre-teen daughter how to approach a grown male and ask him to 'be more discreet' when he gets his cock out in front of her.

I'll bet the transwoman in nothing's example is one of the many who believe they have been using our spaces undetected and with no issues.

As an aside, hands up who is surprised that Eden (the person in the OP's photo) was brought up by Jehovah's Witnesses?

Surely we can agree that women regularly judge each other and make each other uncomfortable.

Not in my experience. In my life women are the ones who have gone out of their way to make others comfortable.

I have said I don't know the solution but I don't agree with excluding transwomen.

Why not?

What is it about the men who say they are women that magically reduces the risk that men as a class are to women as a class?

Put it this way - there is a risk to women from men, and sex segregated spaces are developed because of this. What has changed to make a man 'safe' when he says he is a woman?

NothingTraLaLa, that’s just one example of how people who say they live as a woman have no idea what it is like for actual women. That person’s desire to be in a female override the rights of the women to feel comfortable and safe. There was a definite lack of empathy towards the women in that changing room. Why would a person insist on using a place with people that they know their presence will unnerve?

Do they have a penis? If so in the men’s loos, if they’ve had the chop they yes can go in ladies but still not 100%comfortable as they are still not a woman.

Hmmm. I'm beginning to think you're not posting in good faith.

Yay think, Datun? 😉 🍆

Hmmm. I'm beginning to think you're not posting in good faith.

No chance, the information about how saying 'I am a woman' makes a man safe will be with us any minute now...2128Cl is just finishing off icing a cake and will be with us after the interval.

OP I agree with you. We have this shortcut system whereby rather than making mixed toilets in which women feel just as safe and comfortable as men, we simply segregate for ease. And that segregation, far from being based on your biological sex, your chromosomes or your genitals, it's based on how you look. Patently. So toilets are theoretically sex segregated, but in reality it's a question of your gender presentation.

Now I blame history for sex segregated loos, and I'm sure it's a fabulous tool for the protection of women around the world, but here in the UK it's almost certainly a hangover from the Victorian notion that men and women should occupy "separate spheres" in public life. I don't necessarily think we should do away with it, because it's what we're used to and what everyone's comfortable with. Change will happen slowly, if indeed it does.

Until then, this woman (to me) would clearly use the ladies. And in this day and age of gender presentation becoming more and more ambiguous (thankfully!), if ever I'm in doubt I'm prepared to trust other people to know which loo they're supposed to be in.

Buuuut seeing as it's getting harder and harder to "tell", I think it might be about time we made sure our loos were safe enough and private enough even if they were mixed. You know, just so everybody's comfortable using them. Seems the sort of thing that's long overdue.

We can't do anything if men disguise themselves well enough to look like women. Doesn't mean the ones who can't disguise themselves should get in.

Men can disguise themselves all they like. Most women will know they are men. It’s the walk, the body shape, the smell, instinct, whatever you want to call it. But most women will know.

Genuine question OP, why do you refer to your friend as 'him' and 'he'?

Well, I'd view the transwoman as a woman in that situation.
And a lot of women will view a transwormen as a transwomen which is a person that is biologically male.

Now I blame history for sex segregated loos, and I'm sure it's a fabulous tool for the protection of women around the world, but here in the UK it's almost certainly a hangover from the Victorian notion that men and women should occupy "separate spheres" in public life. I don't necessarily think we should do away with it, because it's what we're used to and what everyone's comfortable with. Change will happen slowly, if indeed it does

It will change when men stop harassing, assaulting, raping and indeed, murdering women. These concepts are not a hang over from a Victorian era, nor are people who know that men can be violent towards women pearl clutchers. What a particularly nasty agenda to make it look as if women concerned with women and girls have an outdated viewpoint.

Unless you can tell us what happens when a man says he is a woman to suddenly make him a safe bet for women...of course.

I don't know the answer but I don't believe it's excluding all transwomen who still have a penis from female spaces, many of them are genuine.

Being "genuine" - i.e. having gender dysphoria and seeking treatment - doesn't mean transwomen are any safer than other men. The two groups commit sex and violent crime at the same rate. Half the transwomen in prison are sex offenders, a much higher percentage than in the general prison population.

There should be harsh consequences for people who abuse the system.

When I consider the dismal number of sex crimes that even reach court, let alone result in a conviction, I think it would be safe to say the harsh consequences will felt by women and girls.