Would you really say this women has to pee in the mens toilets?

[letsseethanshallwe]

There is so many threads on mumsnet about how transwomen should not be allowed in womens bathrooms because of the threat of attack ect. KNow I have someone very close in my family who is transgender (FTM) they pass as a man easily, so when these threads come up i always relate them to him, if he was to walk into a womens bathroom people would think it was extremly wrong, but thats what people are suggesting because hes chromosones say hes a women. I do understand the argument of a transwomen who dosent pass as a women atall to no use the womens toliets, but it seems to me that people seem to think that evrey transwomen wont pass. SO attached i have a picture of a youtuber who is trans, would you really see her be put in a mens toliets, that wouls surely plass her in a lot of danger.
Or do you think she should still use the mens. I'm genuilly intrested. Ive name changed recently and done another thread on a simal topic that got no replies. I just want to see were your argument lies

I don't get it.

This trans woman feels unsafe in a men toilet. Why?

Trans women commit crime at the same rate as men. Not women.

So if men toilets are unsafe because of men, a Trans woman in a woman's toilet is a danger to the women. A Trans woman is as likey to commit a crime as a man.

Either toilets with men in dangerous or not. How is the solution to let someone who is just as likely as a man to commit crime, in a woman's toilet?

Having three toilets - men, women and gender neutral is surely the most logical solution

How is the solution to let someone who is just as likely as a man to commit crime, in a woman's toilet?

Because their feelings are much more important than womens' and girls' safety and dignity. Silly.

Just close all public toilets.
Wtf is going to be checking for a penis anyway.
Will we have guards who say "Excuse me madam, can you show us your vag"

doyoumind

The ops friend is a transman

So it seems from some on this thread that we are back to women having to adjust their level of comfort, embarrassment or anxiety according to what is going on in a male's head at the time, according to how a male feels.

So male in a female changing room who says he is a man? Women are allowed to be embarrassed and upset and ask him to leave.

Male in a female changing room who says he is a woman? Women are not allowed to be upset or embarrassed and should feel ashamed for not wanting to be in the same space as them.

Great. Just great. Same shit, different day.

And that segregation, far from being based on your biological sex, your chromosomes or your genitals, it's based on how you look. Patently. So toilets are theoretically sex segregated, but in reality it's a question of your gender presentation.

Bollocks, Rat. Presentation very rarely obscures someone's sex, particularly when they're male. Transmen do tend to pass better.

Bare faced women in hard hats or trackies are just as obviously female to other woman as some botoxed beauty who spent two hours on her hair and face.

Women are very good at spotting which sex a stranger is. Instantly.
It's been a matter of life and death for us since the first hominids. When we spot a transwomen in the loo we may not say anything, but that doesnt mean we don't know.

And that segregation, far from being based on your biological sex, your chromosomes or your genitals, it's based on how you look.

And yet men have always known who to rape, to sexually assault or harass, to murder at birth, to deny abortion, an education or the vote to. They rarely get it wrong do they?

Because their feelings are much more important than womens' and girls' safety and dignity. Silly.

Yep, sadly that's true. Funny that no one can ever answer that question differently.

I think it might be about time we made sure our loos were safe enough and private enough even if they were mixed. You know, just so everybody's comfortable using them.

That's great. So let's start with making all men's toilets unisex, so women can opt in to using them if they choose to, but still have their own sex-segregated space if that's what they prefer. Let's bully and shame and harass men until they wouldn't think of making a woman feel uncomfortable in an enclosed space (no staring, no 'banter', no 'accidental' physical contact or comments), let alone assault or harrass them. Let's make it socially unthinkable that a male-bodied person who wears feminine clothing should feel unsafe in an area originally designated for men. Let's make men's toilets the kind of place you'd happily let your young daughter walk in to use while you wait outside; where there's adequate sanitaryware and changing tables and, yes, probably a much longer line than before, but I know the men won't mind waiting because this is progress.

Once we've made the male toilets and facilities as safe and inclusive as they can possibly be, and hardly any of us even bother going to the ladies, then we will gladly give up that option, instead of having it removed from us without consultation and with calls of bigotry when we try to discuss safeguarding.

Or, fuck that: let's just guilt and gaslight women into losing their own sex-segregated spaces. Seems a lot simpler.

Or we could keep all the public facilities and using the system of sex segregation that protects the safety privacy and dignity of women and girls, RomanyRoots.

You speak as if we can only tell men from women by examining their genitals, which you must know is a really silly thing to say.

The power of what's socially acceptable is what's keeping penises out of the ladies. No need for inspections, just an expectation that people use the facilities provided for their sex. And most people like it like that.

Ace post, Shincha! Lovely piece of polemic.

Once upon a time I would have been fine with this person using the ladies and still would if they had bottom surgery (the fake plastic tits can't be used to assault and rape so that's not enough to count for me any more). But if you have a penis and the delusion that you're a women, off you fuck out of the single sex space reserved for the privacy and dignity of myself, my daughter, and all the other women and girls who don't have penises.

But if you have a penis and the delusion that you're a women, off you fuck out of the single sex space reserved for the privacy and dignity of myself, my daughter, and all the other women and girls who don't have penises

Don't be hasty, we have two MNers who are just about to tell us how a man who says he is a woman is henceforth totally safe. Don't miss the Big Reveal.

I've got the solution...the issue is with having male and female toilets and therefore deciding who can use which. So to remove the issue why don't we paint over all the male/female pictures and words and replace them with drawings of penises and vaginas. If you have a penis you go in the penis toilet and likewise for the vagina one.

May well cause some gasps and titters for a few decades until we all adjust but eventually it'll be the norm.

If a third category is discovered, e.g. someone who has been in a terrible accident and had their penis ripped off then we could then explore a third toilet option with perhaps a ? as it's logo but for the time being this isn't an issue in the media forefront!

Disclaimer - above post is meant tongue in cheek to bring a smile on a difficult subject

I don't have a problem with anyone who claims to be a woman using the ladies toilet no matter whether they look like the photo or an obvious man dressed as a woman. Cubicles are private so I don't really see the issue and no one has the right to check other members of the public to see if they have a penis so there is no way of policing this

It's not my biggest problem with self id either, however do you feel the same about prison, health care (smears) personal care for your mother in her care home, Your daughter playing football/tennis/rugby/running races and losing every time?

I couldn’t care less of this individual uses my loo

The only thing that fucks me off is the sports issue - as it’s such bullshit ( MTF competing)
Likewise the prison one who suddenly fancy a bit of rape .

The rest doesn’t faze me - I have to say living in such a large city and travelling about I have NEVER been offended by a trans

Reading here

Can i just say a thank you.
Thank you for speaking out, and thank you for your eloquence, to name a few:
Datun
FuriousOfSurrey
Prawnofthepatriarchy

Shincha
sackrifice
PositivelyPERF

Never stop.

Why aren't you asking men if they will accept a trans woman into their facilities? It is not for women to accept and move up. Men need to accept men that like dresses and make up and accept people of their own sexuality no matter how they present.

+1

The only thing that fucks me off is the sports issue - as it’s such bullshit ( MTF competing)Likewise the prison one who suddenly fancy a bit of rape.

Do you not see how it's all the same issue?

Sex not sexuality. Stupid phone adding bits on!

Just stop this nonsense with separate toilets for men and women. Problem solved.
My workplace has only unisex toilets. No one was raped so far.
I used men’s toilets on several occasions. Nothing happened.

On the whole toilets don’t strike as a particularly dangerous place.

Unisex toilets have much higher rates of rape and sexual assault than single sex ones.

The men in your workplace are not random men off the street;
also, being known and hence easily identified is a clear deterrent for most who don't want to be caught and punished.

@Flooffloof
I actually don’t have a problem with my daughter competing with boys (even those who aren’t transgender).
I don’t think she will necessarily lose.
In fact I will make sure she competes with boys as long as possible (some sports like climbing are better in this respect )
I don’t actually see gender separation in sports as a positive thing.
Nor do I care about separating toilets.