Would you really say this women has to pee in the mens toilets?

[letsseethanshallwe]

There is so many threads on mumsnet about how transwomen should not be allowed in womens bathrooms because of the threat of attack ect. KNow I have someone very close in my family who is transgender (FTM) they pass as a man easily, so when these threads come up i always relate them to him, if he was to walk into a womens bathroom people would think it was extremly wrong, but thats what people are suggesting because hes chromosones say hes a women. I do understand the argument of a transwomen who dosent pass as a women atall to no use the womens toliets, but it seems to me that people seem to think that evrey transwomen wont pass. SO attached i have a picture of a youtuber who is trans, would you really see her be put in a mens toliets, that wouls surely plass her in a lot of danger.
Or do you think she should still use the mens. I'm genuilly intrested. Ive name changed recently and done another thread on a simal topic that got no replies. I just want to see were your argument lies

Apart from women. And children. You don't care much about them then do you

No, I hate 'em, obvs. Just because I have a different opinion to you.

I just find it interesting that people on here who are so passionate about level playing fields in elite sport tend to have nothing to say on subjects like doping. It’s almost as if fairness isn’t the issue and trans bashing is.

You know that this is about men and their male patterns of behaviour that do not disappear just because they say some magic words right?

No, I hate 'em, obvs. Just because I have a different opinion to you

Very grown up response. I wouldn't expect anything more from someone advocating to let males into female safe spaces, regardless of the clear evidence of the risk this presents and the concerns that woman have about it.

Well, you were the one descending it into a passive aggressive "oh well, you must hate women and children then" so it was an appropriate response.

I'll fight on behalf of other women and girls, even those that don't want me to. Women's spaces, sports, funding, facilities....all of them deserve to remain women only unless someone can come up with a jolly good reason that doesn't include making men upset or pandering to people who stamp their feet loudly

If nobody can tell us how these magic words work, I am guessing we will have to consider transwomen as much a risk as men then.

Ho hum. I thought all these people with their superior modern knowledge would be happy to share their theories, bearing in mind how upset they get with all the cries of 'bigots'.

I just find it interesting that people on here who are so passionate about level playing fields in elite sport tend to have nothing to say on subjects like doping

What would you like to talk about regarding doping? How about the fact that the levels of testosterone that Diane Modahl was alleged to have had in her body saw her (unjustly) banned from international competition, but would have been only a fraction more than the limits currently allowed for transgender athletes?

Or the systemic doping of East German women in the 1960s to 1980s that saw women rendered infertile, and in some cases choosing to transition because of the masculinizing effects of the testosterone they were given?

Or the allegations of doping and "is she really a man?" insinuations that dog every black, successful female athlete who has a jaw structure or shoulder line that is not normal for Caucasian women?

Or something else?

Your choice

Not really. You said you care about people. I pointed out that was a large part of the population that you clearly don't care about. Just an observation about you. I didn't say anything about hate. But if you think your response to people's concerns are appropriate then you go ahead and believe that. It makes no odds to me. Although educating yourself in a little critical thought wouldn't go amiss.

I still see that no-one has answered how women’s toilets that can be cleaned by men can be female only safe spaces?

I still see that no-one has answered how women’s toilets that can be cleaned by men can be female only safe spaces?

Usually there's signs up that say when men are cleaning them. And generally men will call out if they are coming into clean them. I can't think of a single time where I haven't been warned, where I then have a choice not to go in, or an opportunity to get out before they start cleaning.

I still see that no-one has answered how women’s toilets that can be cleaned by men can be female only safe spaces

Why do you think they put signs up notifying women of this? For fun? Or to notify them that a man might be there and to be aware of this fact?

I was expecting to see people discussing doping, prosthetics etc and what is going to be done to ensure fairness since there seem to be so many people on this thread who are passionate about fairness in competitive sport. Unless, that is, they are only concerned about people having an advantage if they are transgender.

So keeping to the thread topic is frowned upon now?

Unless, that is, they are only concerned about people having an advantage if they are transgender.

Well men competing against women in women's sport is quite a concern, as it gives men a considerable advantage doncha think?

Ok so if women are aware men are in there there’s no danger? In that case transgender people being in there shouldn’t be an issue as women know to expect it.

I'm not sure how the use of Pistorius style prosthetics and the potential unfair advantage is a feminist issue, providing that all the athletes are competing against others of the same sex. But perhaps I'm missing something

I worry for trans people that they aren’t always being given the best advice and support, and that serious bodily changes on children and teens who need mental health support is frightening. I totally disagree with it being declassified as a mental health issue and I see it as entirely different to being gay.

However, I couldn’t really care less about who uses the woman’s loo as long as they don’t do anything illegal. I certainly don’t want to make anyone going about their life feel bad. I do think the sudden mindset shift is unjustifiable medically or scientifically.

The thread topic had fuck all to do with sport!

In that case transgender people being in there shouldn’t be an issue as women know to expect it

No - there is currently no legal or social convention (in the UK) that says that women using the ladies' loos should expect to find a transwoman in there

Ok so if women are aware men are in there there’s no danger? In that case transgender people being in there shouldn’t be an issue as women know to expect it.

Exactly! Bit of a contradiction upthread there.

Ok so if women are aware men are in there there’s no danger? In that case transgender people being in there shouldn’t be an issue as women know to expect it.

No. Men may quickly go in there to clean the toilets after warning women they are coming in. They're not going into use the loos and they are giving women the choice, to wait before going in until they have finished cleaning, or leave before they come in. Are transwomen planning to put a sign up or shout they are coming in as well?

I wasn't talking about elite sports, I was talking about my experience in high school sports and sports for fun and most mentions I've read on this thread are about kids in sports. Even in mid-teens, in many sports like running or wrestling, males have many physical advantages over females. A male of the same weight can lift significantly more than a female of that weight, has significantly more fast twitch muscle fibres and so on. When I was 17, a 14 year old in my weight class (he was within 3 pounds of me) was able to literally throw me across the room and into the wall, something I could never have done to him at our weight class, there is just no physical way for me to develop enough muscle at that weight being female. It's really hard for girls who have to train and compete in mixed sex situations in that age group and, whether or not you follow those types of athletics, it is more than a minor concern. I did that as there were no other options at the time and I wouldn't want my kids to do that even with no other options unless they were fully committed and aware of the risks. To me, winning isn't the main concern, it's everything that goes into doing that, it isn't an environment for everyone.

This isn't to beat trans people with, it's acknowledging that single-sex competitions and spaces have many desirable features and should be available, especially to kids and beginners, and can exist alongside mixed-sex options for those who want or need that. There are better ways to promote trans people in sports - and other areas - than just making mixed sex the only option.

Doping isn't coming up because it isn't the topic and really it would be quite easy to beat some trans people with the anti-doping agenda due to the effects of testosterone has on sports performance - something some trans people take and openly compete on. Personally, I don't think anyone should compete on T, I don't think that's fair but over the last few years, multiple sporting organizations have approved it under certain circumstances. And I'm beyond fed up of "natural" lifters/body builders that clearly aren't but as they now live on social media rather than competitions, there is little that can be done about them. We can be anti-doping and promote that single-sex sporting spaces and competitions should be available at the same time. The two easily go hand in hand but not sure how that would naturally arise with the topic at hand without it being pushed.

Bumsex there are signs so we can give informed consent re male attendants. I have yet to see a sign saying ‘a transwoman is using this toilet’. Currently it is still widely assumed that toilets are segregated by sex not gender.
Re sports, my concern is very much about local level & amateur sports, where doping is becoming a concern but not really a topic relevant to a feminist discussion board.

Ok so if women are aware men are in there there’s no danger? In that case transgender people being in there shouldn’t be an issue as women know to expect it.

They are potential danger, hence the signs. And yes, I do avoid women's toilets when a male cleaner is in there, so do many women.

Can you explain though, how does saying some words make a man less of a threat?

We're constantly being told that men don't represent a threat to women, so they should use the men's toilets.

Men are lovely and would never attack or sexually assault another person. No of course not. It's only the nasty feminists who spread this false rumour. Anybody can use the mens in complete safety, so off you pop you person in a frock.