About music practice?

[longestlurkerever]

How pushy are you when it comes to music practice? DD is 7 and has violin lessons at school. She's supposed to practise at least four times a week but it's always a battle and I'm fed up with it. I'm happy enough just to continue paying for lessons and gently encourage her to practise and shrug if she doesn't, but I think her teacher is getting fed up and I get lots of PA notes in her book and texts. I try getting tough and making her practise with threats etc but tbh it's no fun for anyone and feels a bit ridiculous. At the moment she's reading a book and I found myself threatening that she wouldn't be allowed sparklers after tea unless she put her book down and practised, then stopped myself as realised I sounded ridiculous. What do you do if gentle encouragement doesn't work? Is cancelling the lessons the only answer? It feels a shame as they are affordable and she enjoys practising now and again.

rainbow brite I do try to remind myself that DD doesn't owe it to anyone to give them an easy ride. If she's being self destructive that is when I need to find ways to help her manage her emotions and pick her own battles but straightforwardly biddable is not an end in itself.

Sadly the only way to reduce anxiety in my experience is to do the thing you fear without negative consequences enough times to know on a visceral level there is nothing to fear.

Of course if it turns into a big drama that is a negative consequence and reenforces the fear and if you successfully avoid doing the thing it also reinforces the fear. You have to convince her to understand and want to face the fear of her own accord which is a big ask of a 7 year old.

Making it easier to do the thing helps. A routine around it (knowing what to expect) everything set up ready when it’s time to do it. No highly rewarding distractions for a good 30min at least beforehand (such as screen based entertainment). Stuff like that will help.

Thank you timewounds. That's really helpful advice, and thank you for understanding that it's not an easy balance to strike.

My son plays numerous instruments and he practices for about 4 hrs a day. He enjoys playing so it's not a chore.
Surely these children are meant to be enjoying it same as with any hobby such as horse riding or playing chess.
I have had to put a time limit on my son otherwise he would play all night and we need some sleep 

How much does she play for fun? My dd at that age wasn’t doing much practice, but was having fun just playing. It’s all very useful though and from spending time mucking about playing tunes by ear has now got excellent aural skills.

The other thing I would say, and this certainly isn’t intended as a judgment, is that some - not saying this is you - parents don’t understand that it takes time not only to learn how to play an instrument, but also how to practice. My dd figured this out at the age of 9. She’s now 11 and flying. It was her journey though, not mine.

The other thing I’d say is talk to the teacher and raise your concerns now. My dd2 really struggled with piano practice but I worked with the teacher to reframe and she’s doing really well now.

I wouldn't worry too much at 7, maybe attempt one or two 5 minute sessions a week if you can. My DS wouldn't practice at that age and I thought right, that's it, I'm cancelling the lessons, it's just one more thing to get annoyed about! When I went to see how I went about cancelling I saw we had to give a term's notice so was forced to carry on and, over time, he has got much better. There was a thread on here a month or so ago which had quite a few music teachers chipping in saying their number one hate was children not practising and when I told my DS this, it seemed to sink in as he seems to be practising more now (he's 9). I wouldn't give up the lessons if I were you. When I go to concerts my son is playing in and I hear how good the older children are (not his band!) I know I will keep on encouraging and paying for this.

DD has trombone lessons at school, but they don't let you bring them home.

Fuck off with the parent up

I'm not sure why that deserves a shocked face. If you speak to people like that you can expect to be told where to go. I'm very grateful for all the different opinions, perspectives, tips, and stories. It's helped me focus in on what DD's issues really are, and how best to help her. It's not really just about the violin, that's a synecdoche for how she is generally, but some things really are non-refundable negotiable, and other things you have to find a more delicate way through, or give up.

I'm very grateful for all the different opinions, perspectives, tips

I thought that one was also a different opinion :)

I think you just need to accept that she doesn’t want to practice and knows she doesn’t have to. Getting into stand offs about practice but then carrying on with the lessons is neither one thing or the other. Either you’re happy to pay and accept she will likely have to go over the same things lots of times because she’ll forget between lessons (I personally wouldn’t be but it’s not me paying!) or you’re not happy to do that.

Practice should be fun, music making is fun if that's what you enjoy.
If they aren't practising they won't get better and there will b no fun as they won't move on.

Once ours started moaning about practice, we suggested they stopped and did something they did enjoy.

I have one that has never had to be reminded to practice, never complained and usually practices for about 4 hours a day, plus ensemble rehearsals. It's more than a hobby to her though, always has been

Generally speaking imo if you have to bribe and cajole it's not worth it and the child may grow up resenting the parents and unable to enjoy music as an adult.

I don't see it as expressing an opinion so much as a judgment/order but, anyway, she had a right to say it and I had a right to tell her to fuck off.

Moving on...

Yes, I've reached that conclusion Romany. However I take it forwards, a stand off serves no one.

Tricky one, I always wish my mum encouraged me to stick at my instrument instead of letting me quit the first time it got hard!

Put a timer on for 5 minutes, and try 5 minutes each day. Wander away with the timer, get 'distracted' on the odd occassion, and then she might just do longer. Often it's the thought of practicing which is worse than actually practicing!

How old is she?

DD gets an extra 10p pocket money per practice.

It's not necessarily true that your DD isn't interested. DD's music teacher told us she had to be practically dragged to the piano when she was a child! DS didn't like practising either but, as he improved, he would spend ages doing it.

I think encouragement and reward is best at this age. Nagging is likely to put her off.

A few thoughts from a teacher: I notice she is 7 - is that "old in the year" Y2, or "just stepped up to KS2" Y3? I know you said that she is coping well academically, but moving up a Key Stage can be a big adjustment. Might be a good "excuse" for giving violin a rest for a while. If she's a bit more mature, and more in her stride with other work, she may decide for herself that she's missing it. You could point out to her that by dropping out, she goes down the waiting list, but you know your own daughter, and the response might just be "So What?"
If you stick to it, and decide to go for one practice session per week, the best time to pick is just after the lesson, when instructions are fresh in her mind. Last minute panic when facing the teacher again - she's probably forgotten what it was she was expected to practise. But "little and often" is best. It can take eight to ten repetitions to set a neural pathway; tell her that in child-friendly terms, "take a little bit and make it stick"
Enthuse when collecting her at the end of the lesson, e.g. "What new thing did you do today?" and try to get a specific instruction, rather than just "needs more practice", e.g. "Work on the last four bars; clap the rhythm first, then sing it, then play it". Also enthuse when a violinist appears in a piece of music, be it jazz, folk or classical; remind her, that could be her one day. Is anybody else in the family prepared to listen to her play, and express their delight (through gritted teeth; been there, done that, it gets better)
But truly, it can be soul-destroying to drag through a groundhog-day session with a child who has had a whole week to forget.....

I don't know if this is helpful, but what I've found good with my violinist daughter (and it's often awful, so I'm not claiming this always works) is to break down the actual task into manageable chunks, instead of the time. So instead of saying 'we'll do fifteen minutes' she has a list of things to practise each day - so say the D major and minor scales and three bars of one piece on a Monday and then the C major arpeggio and some sight-reading on Tuesday. That way she can see the end is in sight - for her it works better than using a timer. She made the schedule with me so she 'owns' it, which helps too.

Thank you! She was 7 in August so is one of the youngest in year 3. She's enjoying it but has struggled emotionally with the transition, as she does every year, and it was the general behaviour deterioration that prompted me to go and talk to the SENCO about my concerns. She is settling down a bit now, as I knew she would, but it's a difficult phase to deal with and violin practice has become another battle which I don't have the energy for right now if I'm honest. But nor do I want to take the lessons away if she's still really keen in theory unless the teacher forces the issue as I think she will come back round given a bit of time and space.

But I just had a chat to her on the way to woodcraft folk (a rare few minutes just us). She does want to continue but I explained about other people on the waiting list really wanting to learn and the teacher maybe wanting to give them a chance if she isn't committed. I asked if there's anything I can do to make it easier and she said she wants me out of the room, definitely dd2 out of the way and to do it after breakfast. She promised not to make a fuss and I promised to abide by this. We shall see.

I would speak to the teacher regarding practice.
Posters on here can say tell her to practice for x amount of time on x days, but they aren't the teacher.
You need to trust the teacher and do what he/she says or find another teacher.
When mine first started at 6.5 she was told to practice for 15 min daily, then it went up by 5 min every so often.

Sorry, that sounds awful. I meant parents in general not necessarily OP

I'm a music teacher and parent of musicians. I think some people have given the OP a hard time. It's not as if she wants her DD to be the next virtuoso...!

FWIW, I do agree with some posters that you either need a new teacher, or at the very least a conversation with the existing one. In my experience, some instrumental teachers are quite "one dimensional" in the way they work. They have one way and that is the only way. I've been there with DD1 and it was hard work. DD1 didn't get one piece at all. The teacher insisted that DD played the piece correctly before moving on. I don't understand that mentality; some kids have make a journey round a problem rather than just smashing it down, but this teacher didn't get that. We moved to someone more flexible and DD flew after that.

When I'm teaching one-to-one, I ask my pupils each term what they want to achieve. My 8 year old student struggles to articulate this, but he is very young. We focus instead of having fun, learning new stuff (sometimes it's just a bowing pattern or a new note) and I make up silly stuff for him to do which keeps him motivated. Over the last 2 months, he has really blossomed as a player, so I think maturity has a lot to do with it. When we come back a couple of weeks later to something he found tricky before, he gets it much more readily.

I think lots of praise for just a few minutes regularly is the way to go. Before school is good because you only have a finite amount of time, so give her a timer and make her stop after 5, 7 or 10 minutes. I would start at 5 and when the time is up, ask her to stop and praise her for doing so well. If she does 5 minutes 4 or 5 times per week, increase it by a minute after a couple of weeks and keep up the praise. And see if Santa can bring her a book of "fun" violin pieces, such as Disney, hopefully with CD backing tracks. It's better to play something than not play.

I am one of 3 siblings. We all played instruments. Our mother always said to us, that if she had to make us practise, we should stop learning. Harsh, but totally reasonable.

OP, apart from the lack of practice, a lot of what you say resonates with me.
I have a dd who has diagnosed Aspergers, ADHD, and learning difficulties dyslexia, dyspraxia and problems retaining information.
She was very stubborn, and struggled to read music, but got to grade 3 distinction, on violin, just by learning her pieces.
Music, is her life and she is so focussed dedicated motivated and determined, and attends a specialist music school, where she is gaining a musical education.
Musicians are quirky and I've never met one yet who you'd say was "normal" whatever that is.

When DS showed potential in the piano, DH and I decided to push him in the early years (before he could wield his will!) and were extremely firm. I even have memories of DS crying at the piano and he had passed grade 5 by the time he was 11. But that was only ever our target - for him to read music and to have passed grade 5. As soon as that happened we stopped the lessons, stopped the practice, and I am so happy we pushed through because now (aged 14) he still goes on the piano every day to play for pleasure. It is so lovely to hear and he will love playing for life now. But oh my goodness, those early years, when faced with a new piece, having to sound out the notes and stiffening with frustration at every difficult piece - suffice to say that DS2 got swimming lessons instead!