About music practice?

[longestlurkerever]

How pushy are you when it comes to music practice? DD is 7 and has violin lessons at school. She's supposed to practise at least four times a week but it's always a battle and I'm fed up with it. I'm happy enough just to continue paying for lessons and gently encourage her to practise and shrug if she doesn't, but I think her teacher is getting fed up and I get lots of PA notes in her book and texts. I try getting tough and making her practise with threats etc but tbh it's no fun for anyone and feels a bit ridiculous. At the moment she's reading a book and I found myself threatening that she wouldn't be allowed sparklers after tea unless she put her book down and practised, then stopped myself as realised I sounded ridiculous. What do you do if gentle encouragement doesn't work? Is cancelling the lessons the only answer? It feels a shame as they are affordable and she enjoys practising now and again.

It was supposed to be fun.

Exactly. No wonder lots of kids drop out of music lessons. If they were just allowed to come and play once a week in the lesson (like gymnastics, swimming etc.) I bet loads more would continue.

Why does it matter so much if they don’t progress or progress slowly? Unless the child themselves is upset by it.

Thanks Thistly. She started with the piano, which I signed her up for, but she switched to violin because after a year she hadn't stopped going on about it, and write to Santa, as I said. She was on the waiting list for a term and was so delighted to start the lessons, and left to her own devices (gentle encouragement, and participation from me but accepting no for an answer when she didn't fancy it) was practising a bit. It's only since I started insisting she does it more often, which was because of the teacher's expectations, not mine, that it all went downhill. I will talk to her about it, and talk to the teacher about her learning style, but I'm not going to cancel her lessons only because some people on the internet judge me to be a soft touch. She's a tough customer but she has a great many strengths. She's top of the class by a fair margin in reading comprehension now, although somewhere you'll probably find a thread similar to this one about that, and she is super enthusiastic about the topics they are learning. Off her own bat she put together a presentation about the stone age that made me cry it was so lovely, and she put so much effort in. Quite often it's her maths homework she wants to do in preference to practice!

This is the problem with paid for lessons. My Nan taught me to play the piano - there was no pressure to practice and I never sat any of the exams that my friends sat who had private lessons - school lessons not available in the 60s. I still play a couple if times a week - I learned for pleasure. As soon as my friends were old enough to say they didn’t want to play and be listened to they all dropped out. I think learn to play for pleasure is far more important than the exams and endless boring practice

Learning an instrument is a skill. Like any skill it takes learning and practice. Yes, it's fun, but just as reading is fun, or swimming is fun - you have to actually learn to read and swim to a basic level before it becomes fun.

I was no ruder than she deserved. Plenty of people said she needs to practise every day without that sort of judgmental and patronising comment, and I took on board what they said graciously. I'm with rainbow bridge to be honest. I think she is progressing, but very slowly, and I'm ok with that. I see the value of delayed gratification and will put s moderate amount of incentives into the mix but heavy handed is not the way forward with my DD. Every teacher she's ever had has come to that conclusion and they've all ended up very fond of her eventually. So all I wanted to know is if that means I absolutely have to cancel the lessons because it feels a shame to me, just as it would feel a shame to cancel gymnastics even though she's not made loads of progress there either.

My DC do swimming lessons. It has been fun from the very beginning, even before any basic skills were learnt. The instructors are excellent and there is a huge emphasis on having fun.

Unfortunately what I often see then is almost the opposite... as the kids progress it becomes more fun, more pressure is put on them and surprise, surprise, they start dropping out.

longest FWIW my parenting up and getting my dd to practice ended up with her lobbing the violin down the stairs. I never ask her to practice any more. She's happy with the lessons.

I'm with you OP on the "parent up" comment...

I'm really anti the practice before school brigade due to the consequences for neighbours - living next door to a beginner trumpeter who practiced at 7am every morning does that to you! But if you go down that route, perhaps try to get her to practice first thing in her pjs - the threat being she'll have to go to school in them if she doesn't do her practice and get dressed on time. (You need to mention this to her school teacher first to get them on board.) I can guarantee you'll only have to do it once.

On the violin stand Stagg do one at about £20 - look on the gear for music website - perhaps offer it as a Christmas present if she practices properly for the rest of term?

It might also be worth taking her to a concert with a full orchestra - it shows what she might do one day but also exposes her to different instruments and it might be she falls in love with something else which suits her better?

Some interesting discussions on here. I think practicing is harder for some children than others, and when ds was struggling I found this book really helped as well as trying to make it into a game when possible. Here’s the link to the book: Successful Practising: A Handbook for Pupils, Parents and Music Teachers www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0956618901/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_unw4BbQD6ZS6C?tag=mumsnetforum-21
We have always found a short session every day/twice a day is better than a few long ones and playing in groups can really motivate them too.

@megletthesecond Your child threw their instrument down the stairs in retaliation of being asked to practice? I can't believe you let music lessons continue after that. I hope your child is better behaved in school.

Mine both need nudges, sometimes gentle, sometimes firm, to get practice done. The odd threat to write in the communication book that practice was refused may have been made, and the threat to end lessons.
Mine started lessons at 8, and we aimed for 10mins daily to embed the routine. In reality this means 5 days weekly, as we'd invariably forget one or two night, or have something come up like a school event or playdate.

DC2 is a beginner, and currently needs me to be there for all of her practice bar warming up. She mainly needs lots and lots of encouragement that getting bits wrong is totally normal and expected.

Also, see if you can find an ensemble that she can join, or work towards joining. DC2 know that if she can drag herself through the first, frustrating, boring year she'll be able to join Junior Wind Orchestra, where she's seen her sister having lots of fun and creating a really good sound.

Any chance of finding a different teacher who is more laid back? My DB is a piano teacher and his lessons are geared to each pupil. For those who are very self motivated and practice well he gives more formal tuition/grades and for those who would like to have fun and play tunes they like, he tailors the lessons to what they like and there’s no pressure to take grade exams. If a child likes dinosaurs he will write simple dinosaury music with a title like ‘T Rex Stomp’ and incorporate technical things into it to help with technique and rythym etc. It’s ok not to be a virtuoso and it’s ok not to want to learn in a formal way imo. Enjoyment should be the main goal.

I was desperate to learn the violin (had a crush on a little boy at school who played it) but once the novelty wore off the practice was a nightmare and I hated it. I honestly think there’s no point in persisting if there’s a daily battle, but a teacher who could focus on DDs interests might help her to enjoy her violin.

Music, IMO is definitely not like any extracurricular. As someone said (the OP?) upthread - I can take my child to gymnastics once a week, swimming lessons once a week (with the odd family swim thrown in) and they'll learn to cartwheel or swim eventually. Music is just like learning to read - you have to do your reading practice every day to make any kind of progress. Coupled with the violin being a very difficult instrument for many to get on with, it's a recipe for disaster. Yes, there are kids that can't be prised away from their string instruments but I think it's a really crap instrument for many people to begin with, as it's so technical, and so many facets to get right before you can make a decent sound. It's even harder for the poor child if they've never shown an interest in it, but are being made to do it - this also applies when they say yes, with no real idea of what they are getting into. Strings are seen as suitable as you don't have to wait for teeth to fall out and grow again, as you would for a woodwind or brass instrument, and their availability in smaller sizes, rather than because they are a useful starter instrument.

1:1 music lessons do require that level of committment, and I can't imagine many music teachers being happy with a pupil just turning up once a week to have a go, that's just not how music works. However, it's not the only way to make music. If you want her to do music, can she join a choir? Or try a Kodaly group or recorder group? She might enjoy that kind of music making more.

Sushi, see I kind of admire that (throwing the violin). Lots of kids wouldn’t have the guts to do that.

I wouldn’t force it. It is the practising and repetition that put my brother off. He loved the lessons, made slow progress (as effectively he was only practising 30 minutes a week) but that didn’t matter to him. When it became ‘practise or no lessons’ he stopped.

Why can’t it just be about the enjoyment of the lesson? I was similar but I’d practice the pieces once before playing something I liked. When I started, I rarely practised. I’m a musician and teacher and I think enjoyment is enough for music lessons sometimes.

Hmm this is tricky. My nearly 7 year old is really into music and practises a lot (40 mins a day). We have had struggles and I have threatened to cancel as well. In your position I WOULD cancel. Reading is an essential skill. Violin playing is not. Cancel. And then find a private teacher who will allow her to play for fun with little or no progress but you discuss that beforehand and also talk about DD’s SEN. DS is Grade 3 and it takes a LOT of work especially if he has non musical parents like us. For what it’s worth I sit in on lessons and always have so I know what it is he has to practice and we can make a mini plan and do it together.
I also suggest that this may not be the instrument for her. The learning curve on the violin is v v v steep.

I have had the same tedious battles and I made it clear to DS that it was HIS choice to play the instrument and I would be happy to chat to his teacher and bring an end to this. I had this chat properly not with practice looming but at calmer times of the day so he’s not too upset to process what I am saying.
There is no magic formula for this unfortunately.

Btw with swimming which someone mentioned I found that DS really ‘got it’ when we went on a holiday with a pool and he swam everyday for 10 days and we did two holiday ‘crash courses’ so again there is something to be said for regular practice.

I like the idea of a strings group but again if she won’t practise it’s another thing to ‘do.’

I would be seriously unimpressed with the violin throwing. It’s an expensive piece of kit. Would you be impressed with a kid who was struggling to Read who tore up all the books in the house to make a point? MN is on a different planet sometimes.

Violin is tricky - I was a Suzuki kid at 7, back in the early '80s, and was never really motivated to practise, it was only when I switched to playing the flute at 11 that I really got the bug.

How far along with your piano playing are you? Could you find some simple pieces that you could accompany her with and frame it as just playing together and having some fun rather than practice? Then you can sneak in with, 'Oh, do you mind if we just do those last eight bars again? I didn't quite get my bit right,' until you're practising together.

I'm not explaining that well, but hopefully you get the gist!

I'm sorry to the PP who only posted in support and is now getting the same judgy comments about her parenting as me. I will chat to DD and see where we go. I have no preconceived ideas about how far she will take music. I instinctively feel that a "you need to put in all this effort or none at all" might not be the way to go as it's possible she will take to it more later on. O could pause the lessons but it's not that easy to step on and off the school ones as the waiting lists are quite long. I'll look at the games, thank you. We only really started to make headway with reading when I ditched practice as such and got more creative, but I couldn't think how that translated to music. The dinosaur stomp teacher sounds fab and in fact when DD finally did a few mins of practice yesterday she did say she likes playing the new tune which was a bit more expressive. So maybe it'll become easier anyway.

Judge comments are to be expected on MN!

Sounds like a good plan OP.

Would I be impressed with a child tearing up books? Well reading is an essential life skill whereas playing the violin is not so I don’t think the two are comparable.

However, if they did tear up all the books, at the time I would be furious. I would certainly appear furious in front of my child.

Later and privately though, I would still be annoyed at the cost and destruction but I suspect I would admire it slightly yes. I don’t want to raise robots, I want to raise people. That degree of strong will and stubbornness can get someone quite far in life. I also like to think I wouldn’t push so much to get to that stage in the first place.

I’m a violinist. Much like your DD I didn’t go in much for practice at 7. My progress was probably slower than it could have been. Things really improved for me when I joined orchestras (string groups initially at about 9, progressing to string orchestra and then full orchestra). I never particularly enjoyed playing on my own but loved and still do love playing in a group. Once I’d found that thing that I loved I was a lot more motivated to practice off my own bat. Still didn’t do as much as I should have and I stopped taking exams after grade 6 as I just hated it. I still got to grade 8 standard and now as an adult I play in an amateur orchestra. I’d stick with it and don’t put too much pressure on and she’ll either come to the decision herself to give up if she’s not interested or she’ll naturally become more self motivated.

Personally as a kid who never practiced I feel like kids aren’t old enough to make themselves practice. A lot of the time it’s just anxiety about task transitions.

Anxiety about task transitions rings many bells for my DD. Do you have tips for how to overcome it?

Does the teacher know your dd has some learning difficulties? Maybe she would accept her pace then.
Does she like to play on a tablet? Maybe offer to let her win minutes on her tablet. Use stopwatch on phone.
Otherwise maybe get a teacher who is prepared to just accept exactly what she is able for.

Not yet, no. It's something I'm only really starting to explore with school, though ADHD is one of the things we are exploring and I found this when googling task transitions just now, which does fit her: www.google.co.uk/amp/s/childmind.org/article/why-do-kids-have-trouble-with-transitions/amp/