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MNHQ- please address the anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet and in your talk guidelines

573 replies

IStandWithPosie · 03/11/2018 11:03

It has become glaringly apparent there is a persistent and growing anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet in recent years. Not only that but the stance Mumsnet HQ have taken when made aware of the racially offensive posts has been totally inadequate. Repeated calls by Irish Mumsnet users to remove such posts and to take a stand against them have been ignored by Mumsnet HQ. This is in direct contrast to the way those with other protected characteristics have been listened to and had their reports acted upon in such a way as to leave many Mumsnet users afraid to post for fear of deletion or permanent banning. Which has happened. In light of this we are asking that all staff at Mumsnet HQ take meaningful steps to improve awareness of what anti-Irish sentiments are and the types of unacceptable posts we’re complaining about. A review of the posts that have been reported as racist would be a good starting point, and a measure of what mumsnet members collectively consider to be offensive. We also ask that talk guidelines are applied consistently across the forum for all protected characteristics and that racist posts towards or about Irish people are removed immediately.

Furthermore, Mumsnet HQ have asserted their their intention to knowingly continue to use racially offensive language in their talk guidelines The phrase “beyond the pale” dates back to the 14th century, when the part of Ireland that was under English rule was delineated by a boundary made of such stakes or fences, and known as the English Pale. To travel outside of that boundary, beyond the pale, was to leave behind all the rules and institutions of English society, which the English modestly considered synonymous with civilization itself. The phrase is rooted in the oppression of the Irish people by the English ruling classes and is offensive to Irish people. Mumsnet HQ have been asked by Irish Mumsnet users to remove this phrase from their talk guidelines. Mumsnet HQ have refused stating “there seems to be a general consensus among etymology types that it’s an idiom which has long evolved from its offensive historical context.” This completely disregards the information Mumsnet HQ have that confirm that Irish people themselves find it offensive.
We are asking Mumsnet HQ to apologise for the offense caused by their use of this inappropriate phrase and to remove it from their talk guidelines.

OP posts:
Giantbanger · 03/11/2018 19:34

IStand I hope that was deleted. I’m sorry that was said about your child’s name

Havaina · 03/11/2018 19:34

Flowerpot

*Honestly, you don't think a white person being ignored / treated differently in an Asian shop would find it distressing? I'm shocked.

That's not what I said.

Flowerpot2005 · 03/11/2018 19:35

@ Istandwithpoise

Yes you were one of those who dont understand irony & context & so chose to see offence & racism where there was none.

I notice you fail to address your co reporter telling me I'm not Irish but infact English & the disrespect/ offence in that.

Giantbanger · 03/11/2018 19:35

How many times do we have to say it happens then Havaina? Before you hear us.

Flowerpot2005 · 03/11/2018 19:38

@ Havaina

This is your comment 'However I do think that racism against white people is not endemic in society and therefore a white person being treated differently to Asians in a shop would not be as distressing to them as it was to the Asian person ignored by the stall holder.'

Am I missing something because that is what was said, are you meaning it differently to how it reads?

IStandWithPosie · 03/11/2018 19:40

Flower I have no idea who my “co reporter” is or what they said, i know several people reported your post. I’m not responsible for what other people say just because we both found your post insensitive. I said your comment was low, I made no reference at all to your nationality!

And yes your comment was incredibly insensitive. It wasn’t irony.

OP posts:
youknowyourself · 03/11/2018 19:40

I've never heard the phrase "beyond the pale" in what context would people use it?

I read on a mn thread a few months ago how some people find "throwing/having a paddy" offensive. I was ignorant to the origin of it and thought paddy meant tantrum. I don't use that phrase to describe now.

IStandWithPosie · 03/11/2018 19:41

giant I can’t even recall now if I even reported the comment. It was about 8 years ago.

OP posts:
MarDhea · 03/11/2018 19:43

People from rich, white, privileged Ireland complaining about racism is frankly embarrassing.

In my years living in the UK, all in recent years of this century:

  • I have been called a paddy, a bogtrotter, a "fucking Irish", and a second-generation terrorist.
  • I have had work colleagues describe their errors as being "a bit Irish" (so Irish = stupid and/or wrong), describe my not drinking alcohol at a work Xmas party as "not very Irish" (so Irish = constantly drinking), and expressed surprise that I don't like boxing as a sport by saying "oh I thought the Irish liked fighting".
  • I have had people react openly negatively to hearing my young DCs' Irish names. Examples include one fellow parent in a GP's waiting room who asked my DC's name, and on hearing it, literally wrinkled her nose and said "oh... Irish" before moving a seat further away. Another gem was a man at a bus stop who heard me address my DC by name, asked me if they were born there (in the UK), and then proceeded to rant at me about how I should have given them British names if I was living in Britain.
  • I have heard British people, in my presence, express the (entirely wrong) beliefs that Ireland doesn't have any "proper" universities, that Irish isn't a real language, and that Ireland should be grateful for being taken over by the British because otherwise we'd have no law or written history.

They're just the examples I can remember off the top of my head, without trying too hard. There are many more.

A British person's denial that anti-Irish racism exists in modern Britain is an example of wilful blindness.

Lizzie48 · 03/11/2018 19:45

@Havaina

What does BAME stand for?

Why do you think an Asian or Black person would be more upset to be discriminated against than a white Irish person? You haven't really answered that question. This thread is about how Irish people feel, so why try and derail that by saying that discrimination against Black and Asian people is more important an issue?

I must admit, though, that I did think that discrimination against Irish people was less of an issue now the Troubles have come to an end. I do remember that there was a lot of susp

Lizzie48 · 03/11/2018 19:46

Posted too soon, again! I was saying, there was a lot of discrimination against Irish people during those times, due to suspicion.

Havaina · 03/11/2018 19:47

How many times do we have to say it happens then Havaina? Before you hear us.

Of course I hear you. Yours and OP's experiences are unacceptable and I would always speak out if I saw that happen.

This thread does help to affirm that. I do disagree on 'beyond the pale' but hopefully that doesn't make me blind to other injustices.

Giantbanger · 03/11/2018 19:49

What does BAME stand for? Isn’t Irish an ethnic minority?

IStandWithPosie · 03/11/2018 19:49

how I should have given them British names if I was living in Britain.

A lot of that on the baby name threads. Also a lot of “why give them a name no-one can pronounce”

OP posts:
Giantbanger · 03/11/2018 19:50

Yip. A lot of that.

Havaina · 03/11/2018 19:51

Flowerpot

This is your comment 'However I do think that racism against white people is not endemic in society and therefore a white person being treated differently to Asians in a shop would not be as distressing to them as it was to the Asian person ignored by the stall holder.'

Am I missing something because that is what was said, are you meaning it differently to how it reads?

Yes, I said 'as distressed' as an Asian person. They will obviously still experience distress. That's because IMO racism against white people is not endemic in society.

Giantbanger · 03/11/2018 19:52

But it is just as distressing. Race does not affect the level of distress you feel when you’ve been discriminated against.

LivLemler · 03/11/2018 19:53

So then Havaina you're fine with us bringing anti Irish sentiment to MNHQ's attention and asking them to take it seriously? So why all the fuss?

Havaina · 03/11/2018 19:53

Why do you think an Asian or Black person would be more upset to be discriminated against than a white Irish person? You haven't really answered that question.

I never said that Lizzie! I never said 'white Irish' in that post. My post has been misunderstood.

Flowerpot2005 · 03/11/2018 19:54

@ Istandwithpoise

I didn't say you had commented on my heritage, Im saying you ignored comments being offensive about it.

We will have to agree to disagree but on a thread you started about anti Irish, I'd have thought you'd be quick to pick up on something like that.

IStandWithPosie · 03/11/2018 19:55

Flower I didn’t even see comments about your heritage!! The first I heard of it was here when you said it had happened!

OP posts:
SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 03/11/2018 19:56

I can see @Haviana’s point - someone who faces racism frequently, for whom it is a part of everyday life, may well be more upset by being ignored because of their race than someone for whom it is an isolated occurrence.

Giantbanger · 03/11/2018 19:58

Havaina. So an Irish person can’t be as distressed as a black person by the sign “no blacks no Irish” ? Why?

Kill all Taigs. On a bonfire.

But my distress must be less because I’m white? Why?

Giantbanger · 03/11/2018 19:59

Sdtg what makes you think it isn’t constant anti-Irish racism? What makes you think anti Irish sentiment is an isolated occurance?

Havaina · 03/11/2018 20:00

So then Havaina you're fine with us bringing anti Irish sentiment to MNHQ's attention and asking them to take it seriously? So why all the fuss?

Because I think MN already don't tolerate racism, including anti-Irish racism.

MarDhea's examples of 'paddy, a bogtrotter, a "fucking Irish", and a second-generation terrorist' would not be tolerated by MNHQ.

I don't think 'beyond the pale' is racist so I found the the premise of this thread laughable.