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MNHQ- please address the anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet and in your talk guidelines

573 replies

IStandWithPosie · 03/11/2018 11:03

It has become glaringly apparent there is a persistent and growing anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet in recent years. Not only that but the stance Mumsnet HQ have taken when made aware of the racially offensive posts has been totally inadequate. Repeated calls by Irish Mumsnet users to remove such posts and to take a stand against them have been ignored by Mumsnet HQ. This is in direct contrast to the way those with other protected characteristics have been listened to and had their reports acted upon in such a way as to leave many Mumsnet users afraid to post for fear of deletion or permanent banning. Which has happened. In light of this we are asking that all staff at Mumsnet HQ take meaningful steps to improve awareness of what anti-Irish sentiments are and the types of unacceptable posts we’re complaining about. A review of the posts that have been reported as racist would be a good starting point, and a measure of what mumsnet members collectively consider to be offensive. We also ask that talk guidelines are applied consistently across the forum for all protected characteristics and that racist posts towards or about Irish people are removed immediately.

Furthermore, Mumsnet HQ have asserted their their intention to knowingly continue to use racially offensive language in their talk guidelines The phrase “beyond the pale” dates back to the 14th century, when the part of Ireland that was under English rule was delineated by a boundary made of such stakes or fences, and known as the English Pale. To travel outside of that boundary, beyond the pale, was to leave behind all the rules and institutions of English society, which the English modestly considered synonymous with civilization itself. The phrase is rooted in the oppression of the Irish people by the English ruling classes and is offensive to Irish people. Mumsnet HQ have been asked by Irish Mumsnet users to remove this phrase from their talk guidelines. Mumsnet HQ have refused stating “there seems to be a general consensus among etymology types that it’s an idiom which has long evolved from its offensive historical context.” This completely disregards the information Mumsnet HQ have that confirm that Irish people themselves find it offensive.
We are asking Mumsnet HQ to apologise for the offense caused by their use of this inappropriate phrase and to remove it from their talk guidelines.

OP posts:
Schuyler · 03/11/2018 19:07

Havaina I come from an ethnic minority and have faced discrimination and racism as a result of the way I look. That makes me feel more empathetic when others describe feeling the same way.

JaneJeffer · 03/11/2018 19:08

I hope you stepped in to help them Haviana

IStandWithPosie · 03/11/2018 19:09

This thread is about the phrase 'beyond the pale' and to class it next to 'anti-semitism, sexism, homophobia' is ridiculous.

I would invite you to re-read the OP. This phrase is about the overall anti Irish sentiment on Mumsnet. Not just one phrase. That one phrase is an issue because it’s the one MNHQ have chosen to use in their talk guidelines about appropriate language.

OP posts:
IStandWithPosie · 03/11/2018 19:09

This thread

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Havaina · 03/11/2018 19:09

Of course I would be on the side of any Irish person experiencing racism, as I would ever for anyone experiencing racism.

But I think campaigns against innocuous phrases like beyond the pale takes focus away from real issues.

RavenWings · 03/11/2018 19:11

Yes, it's about anti Irish sentiment. So while I'm enjoying your little tangent, it's not a game of Let's See Who Has It Worst In The Whole Entire World. Good grief.

You need to brush up on the aul reading comprehension as I never said it was the same as sexism or homophobia. I said that it wasnt a race to the bottom as people can care about many issues, and then listed some examples of other things people may care about. Rights in Palestine, the Rohingya atrocities, animal welfare, refugees...plenty of issues out there to get fired up about. Again it's not hard to care about more than one thing at a time.

Flowerpot2005 · 03/11/2018 19:12

@ Havaina

I too have witnessed that but I have actually witnessed more Asian shop keepers ignore or treat white customers very differently. Racism is alive & well. Sadly tho, whilst people take offence at the slightest thing & scream racism etc etc, intolerance will continue to breed like wildfire.

IStandWithPosie · 03/11/2018 19:13

That's the real issue.

That’s a real issue. One of many. Would you say it was no problem for a stall holder to ignore an Irish person in favour of English customers because the Irish person is white?

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SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 03/11/2018 19:16

@Haviana - I think that so-called innocuous phrases can contribute to a society where the worst forms of bigotry and discrimination can flourish. So we abhor sexist ‘jokes’ and comments because if they are allowed, they create an atmosphere in which discrimination and abuse can grow and flourish.

Conversely, if we have a society where we do our best not to use offensive words and phrases, people feel more comfortable, and it is easier to fight the worse forms of discrimination.

Havaina · 03/11/2018 19:17

JaneJeffer, I did ask why they were treated differently and was told he was just busy. We put the fruit down and left.

I'll always speak up for anyone experiencing racism or sexism (even if it's not very eloquent) including Irish people of course but I don't see 'beyond the pale' as racist.

Happy to be educated about racism experienced by Irish people and I'll read the other thread but I fully believe there are greater issues to solve.

Havaina · 03/11/2018 19:19

Would you say it was no problem for a stall holder to ignore an Irish person in favour of English customers because the Irish person is white?

No of course not that's just as unacceptable.

Weezol · 03/11/2018 19:20

The mods here moderate certain of the protected characteristics more robustly than others. That in itself i believe to be discrimination.

I'm in.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 03/11/2018 19:21

I would suggest that our own use of language is something we can easily change and that the more people who try not to offend others in their use of language, the better the general atmosphere becomes - and that will help in the fight against the worse forms of discrimination.

It is all part of the same problem, and I don’t think we should ignore the small things just because they are small, when changing them might help with the bigger things.

IStandWithPosie · 03/11/2018 19:22

Glad we agree on that. I’m not sure what this is about then.

“People from rich, white, privileged Ireland complaining about racism is frankly embarrassing.”

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Havaina · 03/11/2018 19:23

I too have witnessed that but I have actually witnessed more Asian shop keepers ignore or treat white customers very differently.

I've never seen this but of course that's unacceptable too. However I do think that racism against white people is not endemic in society and therefore a white person being treated differently to Asians in a shop would not be as distressing to them as it was to the Asian person ignored by the stall holder.

Flowerpot2005 · 03/11/2018 19:23

@ RavenWings

Earlier today I stated, on another thread, that I was half Irish. I also made a comment which the irony of was completely lost on the commentators & they screamed racist.

The laughable thing was, they went on to inform me that I wasn't Irish, I was infact English. All advised without knowing what my other half was. Who the hell knew, I rang the parents immediately & berated them at length for misinforming me all these years 😂😂

Jokes aside, it's this level of ignorance with regards to what is / isn't racist, that is alive & well in the world & is a huge hinderance with regards to tolerance.

IStandWithPosie · 03/11/2018 19:24

It is all part of the same problem, and I don’t think we should ignore the small things just because they are small, when changing them might help with the bigger things.

This!

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Giantbanger · 03/11/2018 19:24

Racism against white Irish people has at the very least been endemic in the very very recent past.

Just because you’re white doesn’t mean that you can’t experience racism.

Havaina · 03/11/2018 19:25

IStand, because the below does not happen much if at all, IMO. Again, happy to be corrected.

Would you say it was no problem for a stall holder to ignore an Irish person in favour of English customers because the Irish person is white?

Anti-Irish people are seen as stupid and ignorant in a way that racists against BAME people are often not.

JaneJeffer · 03/11/2018 19:25

What jokes? Flowerpot

IStandWithPosie · 03/11/2018 19:26

Flowerpot you made a nasty insensitive post about the Irish potato famine and it was rightfully deleted. I was one of the people who reported that post. I can’t believe you thought that would go any other way.

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Giantbanger · 03/11/2018 19:28

Havaina I was subjected to an intrusive personal search at the airport not that long ago because I was Irish.

My perfectly legal tender Sterling is regularly refused.

My name is mocked.

Mick jobs. Paddy jokes. Potato jokes.

Are you gaslighting me?

Flowerpot2005 · 03/11/2018 19:30

@ Havaina

Honestly, you don't think a white person being ignored / treated differently in an Asian shop would find it distressing? I'm shocked.

IStandWithPosie · 03/11/2018 19:32

Havaina, I have experienced exactly that scenario as a white Irish person in England. I have been refused entry to nightclubs based on my accent. So many other examples. And then I see it on MN too, from the comfort of my own home. I get told that my child’s name sounds like someone coughing up phlegm, yes, that was actually said on a thread here on MN. Now of course that is nowhere near as bad as someone being racially abused on a bus or being attacked for being gay. But it’s still a problem, and it’s a problem I would like MNHQ to weigh in on and take a stance against. That’s what this thread is about, and I’m not the only one who feels this way.

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Havaina · 03/11/2018 19:33

Giantbanger - why would I gaslight you when I have repeatedly said I would stand up for an Irish person just as much as for a BAME person?

And I have also said I'm happy to be educated on racism experienced by Irish people.

I do think racism against BAME people is the real issue but I'm happy to read posts challenging my view on that. Why do you take this to be gas lighting?