MNHQ- please address the anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet and in your talk guidelines

[IStandWithPosie]

It has become glaringly apparent there is a persistent and growing anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet in recent years. Not only that but the stance Mumsnet HQ have taken when made aware of the racially offensive posts has been totally inadequate. Repeated calls by Irish Mumsnet users to remove such posts and to take a stand against them have been ignored by Mumsnet HQ. This is in direct contrast to the way those with other protected characteristics have been listened to and had their reports acted upon in such a way as to leave many Mumsnet users afraid to post for fear of deletion or permanent banning. Which has happened. In light of this we are asking that all staff at Mumsnet HQ take meaningful steps to improve awareness of what anti-Irish sentiments are and the types of unacceptable posts we’re complaining about. A review of the posts that have been reported as racist would be a good starting point, and a measure of what mumsnet members collectively consider to be offensive. We also ask that talk guidelines are applied consistently across the forum for all protected characteristics and that racist posts towards or about Irish people are removed immediately.

Furthermore, Mumsnet HQ have asserted their their intention to knowingly continue to use racially offensive language in their talk guidelines The phrase “beyond the pale” dates back to the 14th century, when the part of Ireland that was under English rule was delineated by a boundary made of such stakes or fences, and known as the English Pale. To travel outside of that boundary, beyond the pale, was to leave behind all the rules and institutions of English society, which the English modestly considered synonymous with civilization itself. The phrase is rooted in the oppression of the Irish people by the English ruling classes and is offensive to Irish people. Mumsnet HQ have been asked by Irish Mumsnet users to remove this phrase from their talk guidelines. Mumsnet HQ have refused stating “there seems to be a general consensus among etymology types that it’s an idiom which has long evolved from its offensive historical context.” This completely disregards the information Mumsnet HQ have that confirm that Irish people themselves find it offensive.
We are asking Mumsnet HQ to apologise for the offense caused by their use of this inappropriate phrase and to remove it from their talk guidelines.

A lot of that on the baby name threads. Also a lot of “why give them a name no-one can pronounce”

The irony is that we deliberately picked Irish names that "travel well", in that their sounds exist in English and many other languages, and their spellings are ones that make sense to English speakers in terms of pronunciation, etc.

After that encounter, I wished we'd gone with Fearadhach or Uaithne or something

@ Havaina

I find your view of the two scenarios really quite strange. I am a white Irish/South African.

I can't begin to tell you of the intolerance & racism I've encountered throughout my life as a result of my mixed heritage.

There is racism & bias against white people & it is absolutely as distressing as it is to others. There should never be levels of tolerance in regards to racism. It either is racist, or it isn't.

I can see @Haviana’s point - someone who faces racism frequently, for whom it is a part of everyday life, may well be more upset by being ignored because of their race than someone for whom it is an isolated occurrence.

Exactly this, thanks SDTG.

Anyone who thinks discrimination against Irish people is an isolated occurrence should read up on Neil Lennon.

I think STDG has hit the nail on the head.

There’s a perception that racism against the Irish is an isolated occurrence so it must affect us less.

It isn’t.

It doesn’t.

Because I think MN already don't tolerate racism, including anti-Irish racism.

Except they do. On Monday when lots of people reported a thread that was started deliberately to goad Irish people MNHQ said the thread could stay because it was interesting and asked us to be polite to the goady racist. They only later deleted it because they eventually looked into the OP and discovered they were a PBP.

I am all for raising awareness of this, although I believe it is vital to get to the bottom of the phrase, which seems to have been applied to many circumstances due to pale [pole] being a boundary marker.
I was ignorant to its derivation and think it extremely important to understand whether than can stand as a fact or not before asking for its removal.
Yea, sadly, I am aware over the years of the associations commonly aplied with the words 'Irish' and you are absolutely right to stand up and shout very loudly about that and other racist slurs.
Frankly I am shocked at the amount you, and presumably others have suffered.

I see the point about the endemic racism, in context of white, but white is also including Irish, and it seems is also endemic.
I am sorry for any contending with this. I was unaware it was happening, so I'm glad to have happened upon this thread.
I am not aware of specific s relative to MN or sufficiently aware of source of the phrase to make a decision either way.
I am interested to watch and wait and hope for change for the better, always!

IStand

I must admit that I found the title of the post about Irish authors to be so ridiculous that I didn't even click on it.

MarDeah and Giantbanger

I hope I am not sounding patronising when I tell you I am appalled (but sadly not shocked) to hear your experiences. I live in an area where we have plenty Irish travellers and I do hear some racist comments being made quite often towards them. Makes me sad and angry.

to both of you

Flowerpot

I am sorry to hear what happened to you on MN but am not surprised at that either. I have seen people being "Mis-raced" (ok, I made that word up) on MN.

Only the other week a lady posted asking about whether a certain gesture she had been making could be considered racist towards Native Americans and should she stop doing it? She got a bunch of replies telling her how racist white people are. She responded that she was of both Jewish and Romany heritage, but was still labelled an ignorant White British person. Turned out she said she was a vulnerable adult as well, so disabilism as well as racism. I think she must have changed her name on MN as I have not seen her post anything else.

I really hate the whites cannot experience racism I see on MN. Thanks for erasing the experiences not only of Irish people, put Scots, Poles, Welsh and Jewish people like myself. Ahkenazi european Jews like myself do consider ourselves white.

Thanks Shriek and Iashanatova.

I have British friends irl who were similarly shocked to hear of some of the milder incidents. Tbh, I didn't tell them it was only the tip of the iceberg because they felt bad enough about what we had experienced in their country.

I think a lot of the examples that are being given of endemic racism against the Irish are just national stereotypes that exist for many countries. I'm Scottish - people can't pronounce Gaelic names, they joke about drinking, about the Scottish being tight, kilts, gingers, call us jocks etc etc

Some of that sounds very similar to being called Paddy and making potato jokes and so on.

I'm not saying national stereotypes can't be offensive, but that doesn't make it racism.

Singing Taffy was a Welshman is completely offensive but are the Welsh therefore victims of endemic racism too?

When national stereotypes are used to denigrate or humiliate an individual or group, then yes: it's racist. HTH.

In the 80s and 90s I was called a terrorist at school because I had an Irish name.

People might think I’m a snowflake for finding comments on Mumsnet racist, but you don’t know what shite I’ve had to deal with for 30 years because of my name.

No one gets to tell me what I may or may not find offensive.

I truly believed that we, as a society had moved beyond those tired stereotypes and prejudices. But then you read folk on here blaming the Brexit car crash on the Irish being “difficult again” those who say pronouncing ‘h’ as haitch are common as muck, or equating being well spoken and well educated as being “English really” even if they were born, and raised and were adults in Ireland. I’m bloody sick of it.

I sincerely hoped my children would grow up without being exposed to ANY anti-Irish sentiments, because there SHOULDN’T BE ANY.

But national stereotypes exist for every country on the planet. So literally everyone everywhere is being discriminated against all the time?

@ lashanatova

Thank you thats really kind of you. Mis-raced I love it haha. I didn't see the post you refer to but yes, vulnerability also attracts massive intolerance.

For me, Intolerance & racism go hand in hand because one leads to the other, regardless of what nationality you are. Intolerance leads to many of the disputes the world over.

@jeanpagett are you suggesting being a terrorist is a national characteristic?!

@Giantbanger - I think you have misunderstood me - I was not saying that racism against Irish people is an isolated occurrence - I would not dream of making that judgement.

What I said was that someone who faces an isolated incident of discrimination against them may well find that less distressing than someone who faces that sort of discrimination on an everyday basis.

I didn’t say Irish people face only isolated incidences of discrimination, so what I said backs you up - I am saying you would be more upset, not less.

Because I think MN already don't tolerate racism, including anti-Irish racism

MN DO tolerate racism - I know people who now avoid because of it.

Anti-black
Anti-Irish
Anti-Muslim

Derogatory posts are left to stand. It's not hard to look back and see. Do a Google search of MN include a derogatory term or 2 - it's all there.

Don't MN say posts should stand and be debated/argued against/whatever "robustly?"

I "robustly" don't want to see any anti-foreigner posts and don't want to be told it's my job to debate with the "it's not racist" hordes either. Take the posts down so racists don't get their fix, end of story.

Signing in, I agree talk guidelines should be changed.

”But national stereotypes exist for every country on the planet. So literally everyone everywhere is being discriminated against all the time?”

Not all national/racial stereotypes are negative, @JeanPagett, and not all national/racial stereotypes are used as an excuse to discriminate, in a systematic fashion, against people from that nation or race.

Stereotyping is expecting a group of reactions or traits purely based on as aspect of ones identity.
So, yes, tight jocks, or paddy, or Irish, same for Welsh, and English, and southerners and northerners, for the french. For women.

For all these identities I can think of racist slurs. Just because they are somehow sub-groypes, doesn't make them any less racist, demonstrate s how much they need highlighting!
I hate that I am witnessing any kind of them and us amongst ppl I considered to be part of 'us'. All of us in the UK. All of us in the world.
It's an excellent debate to have.

@MistressDeeCee you missed off anti semitism.

Craic I haven't ever mentioned national characteristics, my comments referred to national stereotypes. There's a difference.

because I think MN already doesn't tolerate racism

I'm not so sure of that Havaina as I have heard numerous posters on MN over the years (and especially recently) declare that "Only non whites can experience racism." This is classic gaslighting. I think MN likes to consider itself trendy and right on, but I hav enoticed the subtle erasure of people who experience racism who are not black.

I have also heard MNs get outraged if someone uses an expression without knowing it is racist and then telling that poster the onus is on them to do research. Busy mums who often have jobs and other responsibilities. It is now our responsibility to be up to date on every expression used out there. I don't think so! If I unwittingly said or did something deemed racist. I would appreciate being told so I'd know not to do it again, but I would not beat myself up for not knowing. There isn't a website or book which tells us the origin of every expression in existence!