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MNHQ- please address the anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet and in your talk guidelines

573 replies

IStandWithPosie · 03/11/2018 11:03

It has become glaringly apparent there is a persistent and growing anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet in recent years. Not only that but the stance Mumsnet HQ have taken when made aware of the racially offensive posts has been totally inadequate. Repeated calls by Irish Mumsnet users to remove such posts and to take a stand against them have been ignored by Mumsnet HQ. This is in direct contrast to the way those with other protected characteristics have been listened to and had their reports acted upon in such a way as to leave many Mumsnet users afraid to post for fear of deletion or permanent banning. Which has happened. In light of this we are asking that all staff at Mumsnet HQ take meaningful steps to improve awareness of what anti-Irish sentiments are and the types of unacceptable posts we’re complaining about. A review of the posts that have been reported as racist would be a good starting point, and a measure of what mumsnet members collectively consider to be offensive. We also ask that talk guidelines are applied consistently across the forum for all protected characteristics and that racist posts towards or about Irish people are removed immediately.

Furthermore, Mumsnet HQ have asserted their their intention to knowingly continue to use racially offensive language in their talk guidelines The phrase “beyond the pale” dates back to the 14th century, when the part of Ireland that was under English rule was delineated by a boundary made of such stakes or fences, and known as the English Pale. To travel outside of that boundary, beyond the pale, was to leave behind all the rules and institutions of English society, which the English modestly considered synonymous with civilization itself. The phrase is rooted in the oppression of the Irish people by the English ruling classes and is offensive to Irish people. Mumsnet HQ have been asked by Irish Mumsnet users to remove this phrase from their talk guidelines. Mumsnet HQ have refused stating “there seems to be a general consensus among etymology types that it’s an idiom which has long evolved from its offensive historical context.” This completely disregards the information Mumsnet HQ have that confirm that Irish people themselves find it offensive.
We are asking Mumsnet HQ to apologise for the offense caused by their use of this inappropriate phrase and to remove it from their talk guidelines.

OP posts:
Aloethere · 03/11/2018 17:20

I'm sorry LivLemler but those are those examples the best you have?
Thinking that Halloween is American is anti Irish now? The person who wrote that obviously doesn't even know it is Irish so how can it be anti Irish?

Every Connor I have ever met has been a little shit? I said the same about certain names when me and dh were picking names like Adam, every Adam I have ever met has been a sleeze, I am sure there are perfectly nice Adams out there but I associate it with some not nice person. I don't even know where the Adam comes from, I'm certainly not anti whatever country that is just not a fan of the name Adam.

The border thing again someone doesn't have a clue, it's not anti Irish it's someone that is under educated.

The same with the lesbian thing, I've seen Irish people post on Irish forums asking about Belfast, is Belfast safe to go to? Does that make people anti UK or just a bit dense? To me it's a bit dense.

If you look for offence you will find it but in my opinion most of what people are calling anti Irish is literally just people who haven't a clue.

Maybe you can explain how you find these things to be anti Irish? Maybe I am the dense one who doesn't understand how someone not knowing that Halloween is Irish is anti Irish? Or how not knowing about borders is anti Irish?

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 03/11/2018 17:26

I don’t think it is racist to say you dislike a particular name because everyone you have met with that name was horrible - I wouldn’t use the names of the kids who bullied me at school, because their nastiness has left me with negative connotations attached to their names.

If, on the other hand, someone said ‘I am not calling my child X name, because it is Irish/Jewish/Scottish and I hate the Irish/Jews/Scots, that would be racism.

If a teacher has never met a well behaved or nice Conor, I don’t think they are being racist for saying so, or for saying that is why they wouldn’t use that name.

Giantbanger · 03/11/2018 17:28

But STDG the names board has very very negative comments about Irish names on a regular basis (so much so I don’t go there)

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 03/11/2018 17:33

Well that is different, and obviously unacceptable, @Giantbanger. All I was saying is that, in isolation, it cannot be racist to dislike a particular name, even if it is particular to one race, if the reason you dislike it is that you have only ever met nasty people called that name, and not because of its origins.

Valanice1989 · 03/11/2018 17:42

I agree about the attitude to Irish baby names. I think you would have to be very naive to believe there's no bigotry behind the fact that pretty much every Irish name gets labelled "chavvy" on MN. But then, that also tends to apply to African baby names on MN.

lydiaatthebarre · 03/11/2018 17:44

It does annoy me when names like Conor, Liam and Kevin are dismissed as 'chavvy' on baby names. These are actually very traditional and classical Irish names with no chavvy connotations over here.

Perhaps they are chosen in England by people who have no Irish heritage and simply pick names they associate with footballers and boy band members often with no real.idea of how they should be pronounced.

If you like, describe that behavior as chavvy but please don't be so dismissive of our old Irish names that have a rich history behind them.

Giantbanger · 03/11/2018 17:45

One of the first threads I read on here lambasted my name.

BranstonTickle · 03/11/2018 17:51

I agree with the OP

Spamfrittersforeveryone · 03/11/2018 18:12

This thread is ridiculous.

You cannot assume people are racist because they use turns of phrase that originate from half a dozen different things and that are inoffensive to the vast majority of Irish people.

Save your offence for when you encounter actual prejudice.

Spamfrittersforeveryone · 03/11/2018 18:13

I’m half Irish btw. I’ve no idea whether that gives me enough points to qualify to comment.

Havaina · 03/11/2018 18:18

Today 11:57 RedFin

#misefreisin
#metoo
☘️

-----

The above is cringe worthy considering there is very real discrimination against Muslims, Jews, black people etc.

People from rich, white, privileged Ireland complaining about racism is frankly embarrassing.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 03/11/2018 18:28

It’s not that long since lodgings would have signs outside saying ‘ No Blacks, No Irish’ so racism against Irish people certainly was a very real problem, and attitudes like that do take a long time to disappear, so I can well believe that Irish people experience racism.

Schuyler · 03/11/2018 18:36

Havaina many Jews and Russians are white, rich and privileged and may well live in first world countries.

TeamLannister · 03/11/2018 18:39

I agree with op

Havaina · 03/11/2018 18:46

Havaina many Jews and Russians are white, rich and privileged and may well live in first world countries.

Russians?!

But Jews and Muslims are still much more likely to be victims of discrimination than Irish people.

I think it's right MNHQ haven't responded to this twaddle, it's laughable.

Stressedoverkids · 03/11/2018 18:47

People from rich, white, privileged Ireland complaining about racism is frankly embarrassing.

I find this kind of thinking bizarre. You are entitled to live a life free from prejudice regardless of your wealth or heritage.

Stressedoverkids · 03/11/2018 18:51

I am old enough to remember "No dogs, No Blacks, No Irish"

I don't find this laughable in the slightest. The racism against the Irish is no longer as open as it was but it still occurs.

Havaina · 03/11/2018 18:58

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 03/11/2018 19:00

I’m sorry, that’s like saying someone with a broken arm isn’t entitled to feel pain because there are people with far more painful injuries.

IStandWithPosie · 03/11/2018 19:01

I wonder how many posters against the phrase 'beyond the pale' will be defending Muslims next time there's an Islamaphobic thread, which are common.

I would assume the vast majority of people here would be against any form of islamophobia! Why on earth would you assume they wouldn’t?

OP posts:
IStandWithPosie · 03/11/2018 19:02

Do people really only report/defend against prejudices that affect them?

OP posts:
RavenWings · 03/11/2018 19:03

Complaining about phrases like 'beyond the pale' when BAME people face very real discrimination everyday is a slap in the face to BAME people.

Oh would you ever go away with your nonsense. This isn't a race to the bottom - it's possible to think that anti-Irish sentiment, anti-semitism, sexism, homophobia and so much more are wrong. It may shock you but people can care about more than one issue at a time.

Havaina · 03/11/2018 19:03

I haven't assumed any such thing IStand.

IStandWithPosie · 03/11/2018 19:04

Good. Your question does imply otherwise though.

OP posts:
Havaina · 03/11/2018 19:06

This thread is about the phrase 'beyond the pale' and to class it next to 'anti-semitism, sexism, homophobia' is ridiculous.

I saw a stall holder ignore an Asian person last week whilst serving white customers. That's the real issue.