Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

MNHQ- please address the anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet and in your talk guidelines

573 replies

IStandWithPosie · 03/11/2018 11:03

It has become glaringly apparent there is a persistent and growing anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet in recent years. Not only that but the stance Mumsnet HQ have taken when made aware of the racially offensive posts has been totally inadequate. Repeated calls by Irish Mumsnet users to remove such posts and to take a stand against them have been ignored by Mumsnet HQ. This is in direct contrast to the way those with other protected characteristics have been listened to and had their reports acted upon in such a way as to leave many Mumsnet users afraid to post for fear of deletion or permanent banning. Which has happened. In light of this we are asking that all staff at Mumsnet HQ take meaningful steps to improve awareness of what anti-Irish sentiments are and the types of unacceptable posts we’re complaining about. A review of the posts that have been reported as racist would be a good starting point, and a measure of what mumsnet members collectively consider to be offensive. We also ask that talk guidelines are applied consistently across the forum for all protected characteristics and that racist posts towards or about Irish people are removed immediately.

Furthermore, Mumsnet HQ have asserted their their intention to knowingly continue to use racially offensive language in their talk guidelines The phrase “beyond the pale” dates back to the 14th century, when the part of Ireland that was under English rule was delineated by a boundary made of such stakes or fences, and known as the English Pale. To travel outside of that boundary, beyond the pale, was to leave behind all the rules and institutions of English society, which the English modestly considered synonymous with civilization itself. The phrase is rooted in the oppression of the Irish people by the English ruling classes and is offensive to Irish people. Mumsnet HQ have been asked by Irish Mumsnet users to remove this phrase from their talk guidelines. Mumsnet HQ have refused stating “there seems to be a general consensus among etymology types that it’s an idiom which has long evolved from its offensive historical context.” This completely disregards the information Mumsnet HQ have that confirm that Irish people themselves find it offensive.
We are asking Mumsnet HQ to apologise for the offense caused by their use of this inappropriate phrase and to remove it from their talk guidelines.

OP posts:
VerbeenaBeeks · 05/11/2018 21:34

Bluntness i do believe you are trying to goad me. You are now stalking me around the forum to do it. I’m not engaging with it on the other thread and I won’t be engaging with it on this one. Report my username if it upsets you. If you mention it again on this thread i’ll be reporting you.

Why though? It's a very valid question that you refuse to face. Nobody's stalking you around the threads. Some of us are on a few different ones.

Shriek · 05/11/2018 21:39

verbeena all this is getting off-topic. We all know its a big current debate, and ppl are being deeply offended on both sides, but this thread isnt about that. Neither is OPs name about that.

IStandWithPosie · 05/11/2018 21:40

Verbena you had my response on the other thread, you just don’t like it. You’ve successfully hounded me off that thread and now you’re following me across threads to continue it. The post you quoted clearly states I will not be engaging with it on this thread. Is there another way I can ask you to stop that you will respect?

OP posts:
VerbeenaBeeks · 05/11/2018 21:58

Neither is OPs name about that.

She stands with her though according to her username. And on one of these very threads about the Irish said that she didn't see transwomen as being women.
Without scrolling back and through the threads to see exact words being used, that's what she said.
It's not off topic if on a thread asking people to stop using offensive language/phrases/views/ even if it's being pointed out that someone says hang on, your views and name actually is.
It's pointing out the hypocrisy and where does it stop? It's like ban it if it's offensive but only if it is to me.

VerbeenaBeeks · 05/11/2018 22:03

Verbena you had my response on the other thread, you just don’t like it. You’ve successfully hounded me off that thread and now you’re following me across threads to continue it

{confused] Feel free to engage, I've been on both. You don't seem to be able to answer the question though, and it's clearly not just me who thinks that.

VerbeenaBeeks · 05/11/2018 22:04

emoji face fail

Shriek · 05/11/2018 22:04

Take issue with OP about that but do separately.
This thread is about a specific issue. Trans has nothing to do with Irish derogatory stereotyping.
Go and do that somewhere else. I don't think it's the same.

VerbeenaBeeks · 05/11/2018 22:08

The other thread is about if you know something takes offence by a large amount of people then you shouldn't be posting it.
It's the exact same principle.

shakethatass · 05/11/2018 22:42

@VerbeenaBeeks not you again 🙄 you seem to spend an awful lot of time on MN arguing with people

VerbeenaBeeks · 05/11/2018 22:45

@shakethatass Confused yes, yes I do tend to disagree with people. Like a lot of people on here if they hold a different view on a subject?
Taking offence and saying stoppit for one group but happily saying behave, it's not offensive to another is hypocrisy even if you don't want to see it.

Shriek · 05/11/2018 22:46

Verbeena taken it elsewhere. It's not relevant to this discussion and its targetted and derailing.
You see we've stopped talking about the issues around being Irish. Please step aside so the point of the thread can continue.

Shriek · 05/11/2018 22:47

*take

Antigon · 05/11/2018 22:51

It is strange that none of the people objecting to the phrase 'beyond the pale' as anti-Irish have posted in solidarity with victims of racism on the Grenfell Tower thread, where racists burnt an effigy of the tower with paper cut-outs of brown people, made references to women in hijab, with the English flag in the background.

VerbeenaBeeks · 05/11/2018 22:53

Please step aside so the point of the thread can continue.

The point i, and not just me, is IStandWithPosie took offence and said MN needs to stop any sayings that may or may not be offensive to Irish on here, or delete them from the guidelines.
A quote that others have said refers to Russian origins, or some saying they thought it meant bucket as in beyond the pail.
There's no doubt that a lot of people will be Hmm at IStandWithPosie, coupled with the view on the other thread it means nothing else.
Why does one offence stand but not another? It's not derailing. It just seems it can't be answered.

Xenia · 05/11/2018 22:55

We have free speech though. People can divert threads or mention an issue which is relevant if they choose. That is the wonderful nature of open debate.

My own view is that some people get offended by far too much and I would prefer free speech to prevail and if people do not like particular words or phrases then they could just choose not to go on to those discussions if a topic something that they do not like and that kind of thing and that we do better if we tend to be on the side of allowing publication. So many women hold very different views on a lot of topics and MN is very good in allowing us to come together and discuss things.

shakethatass · 05/11/2018 22:57

As a proud Irish nationalist I have become used to anti Irish sentiment my whole life.
And it's not even just from the English, it's from within our own ranks.
Catholics were 2nd class citizens here for years and i still see it today, in 2018.
I work in an office for an IT firm. We had a clean up of the office as it was looking a bit tardy. One colleague said 'you wouldn't have know the Catholic desks, they are all the dirty ones'!!!!
When I picked my jaw up off the floor I challenged her on her comments. It was raw bigotry. In the 60's, we didn't have the same
Civil rights as the Protestants. n Ireland was 'Protestant state for protest and people' and they were given jobs in the shipyard and shorts, over catholic's while we struggled to survive. Hence the perception that catholics were unkempt. It was because we weren't treated equally!

VerbeenaBeeks · 05/11/2018 23:00

So many women hold very different views on a lot of topics and MN is very good in allowing us to come together and discuss things
I agree with that.

Shriek · 05/11/2018 23:22

Omg! This is not about words that ppl like or dislike...this is minimising and irrelevant to the thread.

There's nothing wrong with free speech, but everything wrong with bigotry, and racism.. And you are still derailing.

I want to hear about Irish issues, not your issues. Make your own thread. If you had shut this discussion down earlier, I would not have learned all I have about the prevalence of these racists issues.
How can you feel right to try to silence this?

JeanPagett · 05/11/2018 23:27

A lot of people on this thread have expressed the view that because some Irish people find certain phrases offensive those phrases cannot be used.

The fact that some of those same posters think it's fine to continue to use language that trans people find deeply offensive seems relevant to me.

Shriek · 05/11/2018 23:33

Can we return to the discussion

Shriek · 05/11/2018 23:33

It's because they might be racist, isn't it?

theymademejoin · 05/11/2018 23:38

@Antigon - It is strange that none of the people objecting to the phrase 'beyond the pale' as anti-Irish have posted in solidarity with victims of racism on the Grenfell Tower thread, where racists burnt an effigy of the tower with paper cut-outs of brown people, made references to women in hijab, with the English flag in the background.

Have you gone through every post on both threads and done a cross-check? I have posted on that thread and stated that the behaviour was disgusting and that the perpetrators deserved to be ostracised.

Shriek · 05/11/2018 23:44

But why should they even, and what does that even mean? That is literally meaningless? Why is it strange? It's not, and pp just said its also not true.
What the is this all about now?

VerbeenaBeeks · 05/11/2018 23:52

There's nothing wrong with free speech, but everything wrong with bigotry

COMPLETELY agree. If anyone is denying that it isn't bigotry or wrong in any way if it is about transpeople is wrong though, just no.
It applies there too.

VerbeenaBeeks · 05/11/2018 23:55

The fact that some of those same posters think it's fine to continue to use language that trans people find deeply offensive seems relevant to me.

Same. There's no difference.